Well, that's rather the whole purpose of a sig, eh?


Here's the interesting kicker that somehow seems to get lost frequently around here in threads like these -- you seem to be lobbing some sort of "Christian values" shell in my direction with that. The problem is, my dismissal has nothing particular to do with my religion/her religion, or anybody's religion -- it has to do with her rather obvious political leanings (search up a few of her other essays like I did this morning, before posting a single word here & you'll see what I mean). Dang, how the heck else do you think I found the bio? It's not like I carry that sort of stuff around with me, I found it while trying to see what to make of the writer. What I found led me to a pretty clear conclusion that the next time she has a clue will be the first, and that pretty much rendered this piece worthless, just another steaming pile of crap.

LOL, I'm actually enjoying this. Better than AM1270 Lions talk! ;)

As to the original article that started this.
Come on. Does anyone really see the parallels she is drawing?


I just grabbed one instance, but her diatribe is full of imaginative, and not so imaginative, reaches.

The left needs more Al Franken and Rush Limbaugh types. If she has any sort of on air presence, she could be a shoo in. She absolutely exhibits adept skill in furthering an absurd argument while occasionally inserting bits of truth or fact along the way.

Hopefully the future is full of more people like her and less people like George Bush.

Not gonna happen, but please feel free to hope for it ... it'll make crushing that pipedream all the more fun.

:D

{Yes gang, that was a post by crotchety old Jon that intentionally used self-parody as a humor device. Any resemblence to actual thought or feelings, living or dead, is purely coincidental.}

Why? Is she hot? Do you have pix?

You remind me of my friends Father. He says that anyone who isn't a "Born Again Christian" is going to hell. I don't even argue with him.

Those are your words, not mine.

It's obvious you have a lot of hostility towards this subject matter. Since you're borderline atheist, I can imagine it would be hard to not only be "tolerant" of another's religion (as you say you are) and also understand the significance of prayer across all religions.

It's funny, because I see the same smugness in you that I see in so-called Christian elitists. Both of you think you are right, so what's the difference? Who's more elightened?

Okay, along with the random post order problem ... is anybody noticing some weirdness about read/not read thread indications on the main forum page?

Several times this afternoon I've had this thread come back to the top after reading it but there's nothing new in the thread when I return. Or is that part of the random post order glitch, it's registering a new post but it's one that's been buried up the thread somewhere?

Yes, let's save our children from the evils of arithmetic and the immorality of Huck Finn. :rolleyes:

I'm Christian. I love math, but never really got into Mark Twain.

The bottom line is, there are relative truths in anything. Quoting from either extreme (whether it be liberal or conservative) is pointless and only inflammatory. It's the same old tiresome drivel.

Edited for spelling.

Yep, tis why your post earlier made me laugh so much. Our forum is haunted. :)

...and don't park your heap in my driveway anymore, it leaks oil... :D

So, is using the Bible as the source for your viewpoint 'extreme'? And if that is the case, should we then outlaw its use for the sake of 'moderation?" Not so far-fetched, Canada is already doing this in part as I understand it (under its 'hate-speech' laws.)

Well you could have MANY arguements on this. Which Bible? Which translation? Pick your bias with any translation. Watch the fights over the translation of which Bible....

Why I am, of course. I don't think anyone is going to hell. I don't damn anyone to hell. I believe in freedom of religion. My only problem is I am not interested in having in rammed down my throat (or my children's) in public places.

Of course I have hostility. However, not towards everyone. In fact, some of my best friends are Christian. However, they are people first and accepting of others and don't wear their religion on their sleeve.

And I don't play favorites. On a flight to London in '79 I remember having to push thru a group of Hasidic Jews at the back of the plane, doing their prayer thing. That bothered me because they were broadcasting religion AND blocking the aisles.

If you had a problem with that one, being in East Dearborn would cause your head to explode (largest Muslim pop outside of middle east recently got permission to broadcast 'call to prayer' from local mosque. Equated with Catholic Church bell ringing.)

Dang, you took those words right out of my mouth.

Which, I strongly suspect, will amuse some around us as ironic.

Which, in turn, rather amuses each of us because we realize the truly amusing part is that only one of us is actually right.

It was Hamtramac I thought that allowed this by local officals, not Dearborn. I used to live there (Dearborn), I do not recall the call to prayer being on.

Just FWIW, this article
http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews...3_20040525.htm
says that, although Hamtramck was voting on it, "Mosques in Dearborn and Detroit broadcast on loudspeakers and have done so without seeking permission from those city governments."

Guess I was in the part of Dearborn where you couldn't hear it. Thanks for the research though, good work!!!

This is a really depressing thread.

On so many levels.

You're welcome. I was just curious enough to start wondering so a little Googling & there it was. Another link also provided a possible explanation for why you didn't hear them

This is the site link, but it's citing another Free Press article
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/7417-.html
Q: Do mosques in other metro Detroit cities broadcast the call?

A: Most do so within the mosque, but one mosque in Dearborn and several in Detroit broadcast externally.

Maybe it is "just one" instead of all/several, and that would seem likely to be something that you'd have to be in just the right neighborhood to hear at all.

What did we do before Google...library what???? :)

Interesting that you ask this. When I was younger, I was a born again Christian. We were evangelical, so we took everything in the Bible completely literal. As I've grown up, there are a number of things in the Bible that I have trouble with and that's been key in keeping me from embracing my faith entirely, though I do consider a Christian at heart. My morality, charity and "samaritanship" (if that's even a word) are all because of my childhood in the church.

Now that I'm older, I find the extremes on both sides as distasteful. I don't believe that God holds malice towards people who are gay, to the young child growing up in Bangladesh who has never heard of Jesus, etc. I understand the very nature of Christianity beckons you to witness to others, to spread the good news. Imagine, if you will, that you hold the key to heaven and your family member/best friend hasn't embraced it. If you really loved them (or society) you would do everything in your power to have them take that key as well, wouldn't you?

To the people who take great offense to people witnessing to them...there's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. If someone starts with, "You're going to hell..." that's obviously the wrong way. If you can think about it from the other point of view, however, they are only really thinking of you, and want you to share in this incredible thing. If you're a person who has no beliefs whatsoever, yes, you can be disgusted with this, consider it a nuisance, whatever -- but really, that's not their goal. They feel they have the key to the universe, and they'd like to share it with you.

I can see both sides as I've been on both sides. Heck, my parents are back in the church again and desperately want me to bring our children up in that "glow". I value the church for it's morality, and the ability to teach right from wrong, but I don't agree with a lot of the literal translations of the Book.

I feel there is a God out there, but I think it's very hard for the human mind to comprehend.

That's great news. The bottom line is, however, that you either are or aren't. Those are 50/50 odds - you might as well flip a coin.

It's interesting that you note your Hasidic Jew experience. I had the same experiences this past summer/fall in Boston and New York around convention time. Of course, these people has an entirely different "religion", but it inconvenienced me all the same. Maybe someday there will be a law preventing them from inconveniecing me...

East Dearborn, yay!
 

East Dearborn, where do you live Bubba? I used to stay in East Dearborn, right by the City Hall :eek:

Don't worry about it. The airlines have already taken care of it. You are not allowed to block the aisles. Another crisis solved.

Phew! Yet another reason to blindly trust our federal government as they seem to know what's best!

I agree. I also agree w/ your "child from Bandladesh" thoughts as well...I've been told by a few diff. BAC's that "everyone has the chance to see Jesus and accept him at some point in their life..." and that if they don't, they're basically screwed. The flaw in that is...didn't God create us? God created me with this brain. My brain will not allow me to believe in the God of the Bible based on faith alone. I just can't.

So that being said...there may be a God...there may not. But like you say...I don't thinkl we can even grasp what it is. Hundreds of years ago, people thought the Earth was flat...

NPR did a segment on this not too long ago, and this might be the biggest urban legend of all time. The notion that the world was flat was aparrently not all that popular of a idea prior to Columbus's journey. That is what we have all been taught, but it apparently wasn't all that popular a theory at the time. It was almost a hundred years later when people popularized the notion that "people used to think the world was flat too".

Not for me - I got two gold stars!!!!

Ok. I'll defer to you on this, as I don't know much about it. I think everyone will get the point, though.

I live out in the lakes area, but Grammy and Grampy both lived to a ripe old age first in East Dearborn, later Grammy lived in West after Grampy passed. I used to get walked around that park next to City Hall and dragged thru the old Federal Dept Store on Mich and Shaefer on a regular basis.

And that mosque you talked about may be the biggest one in North America. The big one on Alter Drive, they just finished it recently.

Ha! This takes the loss of 'personal responsibility' to a whole new level! Salvation by accepting Christ is supposed to be a personal choice by an individual allowed by 'free will.' But in your case, God created your brain and that brain cannot accept His existance, so your still covered right? Good Luck with that one at the judgement! (The last refers to the event referred to in the Bible, so if the Bible isn't true no worries, right?) ;)

hehe. No trouble. My entire bit of knowledge on the subject comes from a five minute piece on public radio where the reporter asks a few historians some questions. Maybe those historians are part of a fringe element, and I shouldn't believe everything I hear on the radio.

edit: I did find this website among others though
http://www.bede.org.uk/flatearth.htm

See, I don't understand this attitude. What is to be gained by this flippant response?

Here's the deal: suppose Islam is correct. Suppose Jesus was just a prophet. Suppose I have my "free will" as you have, but you didn't see the forest through the trees that Islam is correct. Now reverse the process. Does God intentionally make it harder on some souls by having them grow up in predominantly Muslim countries to see if they "get it" and accept Jesus? If Jesus IS the way, the truth and the life, wouldn't he give every human being the same opportunity to hear and understand God's Word? What ABOUT that child in Bangladesh who dies in a flood at the age of 8 and has never even heard the name "Jesus"?

Be careful of those then who wish to empower the government even more.

The Biblical account of Jesus cannot be compatible with the account of Islam according to the Koran. The two are mutually exclusive. As I understand it, the fundamental difference that Christianity has with not only Islam but with ALL other religions is that ALL other religions base salvation and heaven (or whatever their comparable is i.e. Paradise, Reincarnation, ect...) is that Christianity is based on the freely given Grace of God thru the Sacrafice of Christ and not human-based works. (Mohammed Ali once spent over an hour signing autographs for a crowd somewhere, in much discomfort, and the reason he gave his interviewer was to 'earn his place' in heaven after life.)

I don't know about each and every example of who, what, when, ect...someone hears the news about Christ. But Jesus does make it clear that it is my responsibility to make HIS Word, Ways and Plan of Salvation well known and available to all I can. This is referred to as "The Great Commission." It is the common direction Evangelical Christians take in living their lives (for Christ.)

Did not mean to be 'flippant' on the last, just always feel 1. I put forth Biblical principles as relevant viewpoints in discussion 2. Often these are misunderstood as somehow me wanting to 'cram my beliefs' down others throats. I have no intention of doing this, challenge anyone to give one clear, actual example of where I have ever done this, but realize that many do feel threatened whenever Biblical principles are advanced. As such, what may come across as 'flippant' is actually my way of just saying the choice IS yours to do with as you want.

I haven't "Accepted Christ" because I don't believe in things based on faith alone. If I told you that tomorrow you, and everyone you know would receive $10,000,000 in your bank account, would you believe me? Why not?

That's how I view the premise that you must "accept Christ" if you want to go to heaven. I just don't buy it. My thought process won't let me.

BTW, it's "you're"


I went to Christian school for 13 years and grew up in the Church. I have a very good understanding of the Christian Bible, and at about age 12 I started asking questions and could never receive sufficient answers. The only "religion" that I've really taken an interest in is Buddhism. If anyone would like to know more (there are a lot of misconceptions about it, I've found), check here: http://www.elizabethchurchofchrist.o.../buddhism.html

I will say that doing good deeds and being a good person makes a lot more sense as far as gaining entry to "heaven" than saying "I accept Jesus as my Savior"...

good deeds <=> good person

At least not in all cases.

I totally understand, being a former born again Christian myself (who was baptized at 12 and saved the week before). I just never understood how this can be the one true path as a great many people on earth probably die before even hearing the name "Jesus". It doesn't make sense to me. I know faith doesn't often make sense but it just reeks of elitism to say MY religion is the one that's right.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here...I do believe in God - I just take issue with man's interpretation of Him and the events of the Bible.

Of course not. By the same notion, neither does saying, "I accept Jesus as my Savior"

So this Christian god doesn't care how good of a person you are, just that you were raised in a country that allowed you to hear of the "one true god" huh?

Didn't you learn to share with the less fortunate in kindergarden?

I'll give you a green check if you give him one of your gold stars ;)

(Is this how the Euro started? An insane bartering system based on silly deeds?)

SI

FWIW, I'm not completely comfortable with this notion, either. But some of this may be that there is a difference between saying you've accepted Jesus as opposed to actually doing so.

(I generally don't believe that faith is something that needs to be shouted from the rooftops [Acknowledged, yes. Actively trumpeted, I'm not so sure]. Maybe this is because I have not been a steady churchgoer for a LONG time. But I've been more of the thought that religion is largely an internal process. If you are true to God [or when there are times when you are not], you know this, and God knows this. Ultimately you're not judged by your peers' opinions, but by a higher power.)

It depends which flavour of Christianity you're dealing with. The bitter flavour of the god of your post is that of the Catholic church where access to heaven is through "God's Grace" and no one really knows what the criteria are. Good works are not the key because we're all evil anyway because of "original sin". :(

The Protestant flavour is much more to many people's taste where an individual is more at liberty to come up with his own criteria based on his own particular interpretation of the bible. This is so liberal in the Anglican church that it has been said that it's not necessary to believe in God to be an Anglican :)

Paul said it best:

Romans 1:16-32



When you deny God you will believe all sorts of stupid things, including the leftist propagandist that started this thread.

Jesus was the son of God or he should be completely dismissed as a lunatic. The Jewish religious leaders in this passage knew exactly who Jesus was claiming to be:

John 8:51-59


The reason the Jews were debating with him is because they knew this is what Jesus was getting at. But imagine how shocked they were when he used these words. They were so shocked they were about to execute him on the spot because these are the same words God used to describe himself to Moses:



Sorry but it is ridiculous to say that Jesus was anything other than God himself because it is well documented that this is what he claimed to be. Whether you believe this claim is between you and God.

I wasn't saying that Jesus WAS just a prophet. I was just giving an example, that's why I began the sentence with "Suppose..." It was purely theoretical.

I usually stay out of these threads, because it's a lose lose situation, but yet I have this sick fascination with reading them.

This quote however did make me giggle.

I did a giggle and a eye roll and a head shake. Gotta love religion because it brings out the best in people. :rolleyes:

The funny thing to me is that this quote, in a lot of ways, is absolutely true. But I would guess that you wouldn't acknowledge that, only the sarcastic meaning of it.

That's all for me. I'm out. :)

I think it's much more plausible to believe that Jesus was a fundie philosopher than the "son of God"


:shakesoffthegrime:

Me too, me too.

GOD WANTS ME TO BOMB THE RACKIES. THEY MIGHT HAVE NUKULAR WMDs! MAYBE!