I hate that no matter what the GOP or Trump tells them to do they eventually cow tow and do it.

The rules they're playing by were put in place by the GOP majority and done during the Benghazi hearings and the Hillary server stuff but now that these investigations are being done quietly so that the information is kept private (like most investigations) but now that the GOP are up in arms the Dems give in. I just want the same rules for everyone.

Cool. That is why I said if it is true. It seemed too idiotic even for him.

I really thought it was mistake not to have a vote in the first place because I knew that would be the GOP talking point. Now, it is really too late. They are just going to bitch about not getting subpoena power, and not letting Trump's lawyers run a defense. Unless they give them that too, then they will complain there is not enough Republicans on the committees, and their chairs are uncomfortable. It is always going to be "not enough" and never about the actual case.

You hold him in higher esteem then I do. Remember this is a guy that had a himself on a fake Times cover.

Regardless of the timing, I think the photo was staged. There's nothing organic about that picture.

I mean, in the grand scheme of things this is pointless, but we're talking about the party that made nitpicking pointless things an art over the previous 8 years.

The only refrain I have for "not enough" is Merrick Garland.

You will never find a process that the GOP won't try to ratfuck. Do what you think is right and damn the consequences.

The smearing of LTC Vindman as some sort of Ukrainian agent is a new low for the GOP.

Can't wait to see how they go lower tomorrow!

Opening statement from Vindman. It is ludicrous how guilty Trump is.

https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.ne...ementfinal.pdf

Looks like Ambassador Sondland has changed his tune about the quid pro quo in Ukraine after basically everyone that testified after him said he did indeed ask that.

Not sure what the legalese is but if true, they should make an example of Sondland ... quickly so everyone else testifying later know the committee is serious.

Is it possible for Trump to pardon Sondland (and like)?

Intelligence panel Democrat: It appears Sondland committed perjury | TheHill

I agree Edward-Sondland only got his job because he was a large donor to Trump/GOP. Send a message to all the other Trump loyalists that they better decide what that loyalty is worth to them right now.



I think Trump can pardon them, but they can no longer plead the fifth if he does, so I'm not sure its a big win for them to get pardoned. And so far Trump has not pardoned anyone connected to Mueller/impeachment I think, so I wouldn't have a lot of confidence in him right now.

This truly is one of THE WORST administrations in the history of this country. After he is out of office, he deserves no statues, no libraries, no streets or schools named after him, zero, zip, nada.

Team Trump Admits Holding Back Billions For Puerto Rico Disaster Recovery

I'm no lawyer but...

So let's say Trumps pardons his loyalists and they refuse to testify anyway, what exact recourse do the Democrats have? Couldn't Trump just shield them from future consequences with more pardons all the while crying about witch hunts and how Trump is the true victim in all this?

Yes, our constitution has quite a few faults.

The Founding Fathers assumed 230 years ago that we wouldn't elect mobsters to run the government. Whoops.

I'm no lawyer either so don't really have an answer for you.

Then it would get rolled into obstruction charges related to the impeachment investigation. Then the GOP senate would say the Dems couldn't get enough evidence to remove.

It keeps going back to the founding fathers never imagining a corrupt executive branch and complicit senate. Or if they did they just decided we were all pretty much fucked anyway.

No matter what system you have, if there's enough corruption in it and tolerated by the people, things aren't going to end well. I think it's a cop-out to blame the Constitution here. It's certainly not perfect, but it does have a mechanism for removing those who abuse their office. If you like government of the people, then you have to blame the people when government doesn't do their job and the people don't do a darned thing about it when they have the power to do so. If Trump's impeachment was being demanded by large majorities of the electorate, he'd be removed.

Ah but here is where we go down the rabbit hole.

What determines the opinion of the electorate? Mostly, it's media. And what does the media report on? What gets it ad clicks and viewership, to make more money. So what controls public opinion, in the end? Money.

Those who have money can manipulate the media message, and control the actions of the electorate. Ergo, the electorate is powerless.

Toss in an electoral system with a first past the post process, resulting in two dominant and diametrically opposed parties, and a pervasive media that is literally everywhere, and you have a situation where the electorate is unconsciously herded into the dialogues the people in power want them to be. The narrative we're fed is to fear the other side above all else. And a two dominant party system ensures that neither party is likely to ever have true control of Congress. So when the exec admin is corrupt, the party in power must choose to cave to their fear of the other side (and admit they are themselves wrong) in order to even recognize the mad man in the Oval Office, much less remove him.

In my experience, the electorate are sheep. This is not a challenge they are up for. And the wealthy puppet masters know it.

The constitution wasn't written to be a government of the people. They didn't trust the people to even vote. And we still have elements of government that don't want everyone to be able to vote.

Not to beat this dead horse, but I think it is simply an issue of verbiage. "Staged" is probably the wrong word, because these people most likely were in the room when the raid was watched. "Posed" is what the picture is. The Obama/Bin Laden picture was a candid shot. This one was very obviously a posed shot.

Fwiw I believe Edward wanted an ear witness to impeach

Welp here you go... I wonder how many like him will continue to choose to defend the president versus defending our country and democracy.

And of course the gop turns on a Patriot in Vinson to continue their deep dive on trading the country for the color red.


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Yup, definitely a good witness, he was in the room (and not the heard from X who heard from Y). Some articles that Sondland may somehow retract/restate to become more aligned with Taylor (and assume with Vindman).

So then when he changes his story after being caught in the lie, I hope the defenders of chairman Trump will equally malign the lying and hypocrisy of him.

Lying and hypocrisy shouldn't be afforded any room at all.

I've heard a lot of people early on saying that they're scared of pence versus Trump... I'll take a person who believes what he says even if I disagree with it and perhaps will have a hard time lying, versus a person who will simply lie about everything all the time.


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Its not surprising that you and many others on this board (in my opinion) misunderstood my point. I was not defending the President, I was defending the process as I believe more supporting testimony was needed vs just one person (Taylor who heard from X) and a whistle blower (who heard from another X who possibly heard from Y) for quid pro quo against Biden & Son.

Many of you see this as Pro-Trump or Anti-Trump, very binary. I consider myself "independent" who supports some of Trump's policies and not on others. In the Obama thread, I believe you will find the same ... that I supported some of Obama's policies and was critical of others.

In my mind, on a 1-10 range where 1 = ultra liberal Democrats and 10 = Trump true believers, the vast majority of this board is in the 1-3 range, a couple in the 10 range. I consider myself in the 6-7 range.

I am more conservative in Economic and Foreign and more liberal in Social. I don't vote straight party. I voted for Hillary in 2016. At this time, I am definitely leaning to voting non-Trump.

I'm with you here. I'd take Pence over Trump any day. I view Pence as a "traditional" Republican who follows the old "rules". I'm ready to return to the old ways in the next 4 years (e.g. hence my preference for Biden as the nominee).

I think Pence would be better than trump at this point (oh how far have we fallen), as much is it pains me to say that. Having Biden get the nomination though, I fear, is going to be Hillary v2.0 and after having almost 4 years of an absolute train wreck, we need something...someone that can swing things back to a more progressive government, not back to somewhere a bit right of center. Time has run out for a more centrist government, especially when it comes to the Earth's climate, income inequality and medical care. We've let it go for so long, that at this point, the band aid has to just be ripped off.

Regardless of all that and anything I said, if Biden wins the Democratic nomination, I will be voting for him.

Meanwhile, your "traditional" republicans have exploded the debt that Obama spent 8 years trying to fix.

BTW it be great (& hilarious) if Pence was truly "anonymous" and the resistance from within.

Apparently, LTC Vindman testified that two passages were left off the released rough call transcript.

I'm sure they were completely inconsequential.

Totally agree. The type of stuff that you’d want to put in a highly classified server immediately after a “perfect call”

I'm going to laugh my ass off if the term 'quid pro quo' was in the passages they left out.

That would make it the greatest phone call in the history of American politics, finally surpassing LBJ's bunghole.

Oh My God.

If, at some point, Trump does not tweet out the defense that you cannot impeach a President over a phone call because LBJ said bunghole and no one impeached him, then I will be very disappointed in him.

(Followed up by a serious conservative commentator on Fox explaining that LBJ was ordering those pants for his own personal benefit and not the benefit of the country, so Trump really isn't doing anything different than Presidents have done throughout history)

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

LBJ was worried about his nuts, but Trump puts your nuts first.

Bolton has been invited to give a deposition on Nov 7

Trump tweeted a photo of a Medal of Honor recipient-the edited him out and replaced him with the dog that helped get the ISIS leader,

Damn.

finally telling the truth

Yup! Melania would be like Dobby from Harry Potter after getting a sock probably.

On the edge of the impeachment vote, Trump tries to buy Republican Senators loyalty with money:


Trump lures GOP senators on impeachment with cold cash - POLITICO

Dear Trump and Trump Defenders,

I'm afraid you don't understand the term, Witch Hunt.

Pelosi, Schiff, et al are not the witches. They are the hunters.

Thank you.

Looks like the vote passed. Rs got their vote, zero to bitch about, though without a doubt, they will try and spin something to make it about everything else except for the crimes committed by the president*.

Another interesting day(s) coming.

Assume Bolton was in the room also and would love to hear his point of view. And that whitehouse attorney that moved the transcript into the secured server after Vindman brought his concerns up.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/30/polit...use/index.html

Yup. Had to turn off their response, because it is just so eye-rolling. "No one has ever been treated this unfairly. This is not due process..." etc. etc. etc.


They have said multiple times that the president did nothing wrong, though. Maybe they will openly say it is fine that the president uses foreign relations for his own gain.

Oh man their statements prior to the vote were super cringy. All I can say is, if a democratic president does ANYTHING that they said was perfectly fine, they have zero credibility or legs to stand on.

Here's the crazy thing I saw someone point out. We've gotten almost no leaks from the closed-door testimony. And the GOP has members on all these committees and have heard all of this testimony. AND THEY HAVE NOT FELT IT IN THE PRESIDENT'S INTEREST TO LEAK ANY OF IT.

How damning must the testimony be?

Pretty funny at approx 3:30 into video. I can only imagine what Hannity was thinking ...

Donald Trump Jr. tells Fox News that he wishes he was Hunter Biden so he could ‘make millions’ off his dad’s name - MarketWatch
.

Haha! These people are so morally and truth bankrupt, it's almost like they are running a trump business.

The favorite President of so-called Christians hires a heretic to head up his faith outreach.


Televangelist Paula White joins White House staff | TheHill

Everyone remember when we used to laugh at the Iraqi Minister and his reports while the country was getting its ass kicked, and the reports on anything out of NK about the Dear Leader?



It feels like our own US publicity campaign is creeping every so steadily toward that. And by steadily, I mean racing at a steady bread-neck speed.

Why do so many Dems want to torpedo their general election chances fighting over things that will never get through the Senate?

The rest of the world has noticed this for some time now, trust me, you’re already there ;)

Because then it looks like they are doing their jobs and the Republicans in the Senate are the ones they need to get rid of?

More info on why what Trump is doing should be impeachable, even without the quid pro quo.

‘It’s like nothing we have come across before’: UK intelligence officials shaken by Trump administration’s requests for help with counter-impeachment inquiry | The Independent

Somewhat surprising there isn't more support from the independents even with all the latest happenings.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/01/polit...oll/index.html

Yup we are f’ed I fear in the general election. Morrson’s Testimony today had him stating he thought there was nothing illegal done on the call. The Dems have handled this like they always do .... poorly. I can very much see a repeat o last election wher polls up to Election Day saying Warren wins by 7 or 8 points and in the end Tumrp wins by 1 point again.

We appear to be entering the, "yes he did it, and it was awesome," phase of quid pro quo defense.

Mexico breathing a sigh of relief that they didn't pay for a wall that can be sawed through by a $100 power tool.

We know the wall wasn't actually about stopping people from crossing the border anyway.

I don't know if they ever had sex, but I'm positive Trump tried.

Buzzfeed and CNN (and others?) get their first batch of documents from winning a lawsuit with the federal govt over the Mueller interview notes:


Robert Mueller's Secret Memos, FBI 302 Interview Reports, Revealed After BuzzFeed News FOIA Lawsuit

So given that trump has raised a fuckton of money and did in '16, and given that we have arrests of money that was basically laundered into the election from foreign donations via US PAC's by Russians who were arrested, I have to say that there's a strong chance that the turnip campaign has been substantially funded via hidden foreign donations, either though PAC's or directly though a string of individuals donating with money gotten from other people. Too many pieces fit together for that not to be a reasonable theory. More so than some DNC server stolen by the Ukrainians.

Looking at what has come out so far, it seems clear Mueller was a near total failure.

Sure, but don't you see the point here? Trump and his henchmen try to legitimize these ridiculous conspiracy theories. So, even if something looks bad for Trump, he can claim it is all "Deep State" or actually foreign actors on behalf of the Democrats. Basically, anything he accuses others of doing, he is actually doing. The defense will always be "fake news" or "the other side does it, too." And his people will buy it every time. I really can't see a way out of this cycle.

Does she resemble Ivanka?

She's definitely his type.

It's authoritarian rule 101.



It's exactly what Putin did when he solidified his power in Russia. Find a way to shut down the opposite narrative, take control, control the narrative.



Once you've achieved control of the narrative it's over. It's 1984, it's the red pill/blue pill. It's no more WH press briefings (which I believe I said was one of the things that was so dangerous about his use of Twitter as a major form of WH communication), etc. There's no real reason to answer for things, when you are not actually answering, just spouting off all the time. His helicopter chats are the same thing. He doesn't give interviews to press that won't give him positive press.

This is it. And we don't know how much of the GOP is caught up in Russian support.

“ ‘We could never quite understand it,’ ex-senior WH official said of Trump’s negative view of Ukraine.”

no mystery

Ukraine’s been at war w/Russia since ousting Putin-allied leader

Trump hired Manafort, who’d advised Putin ally

Putin helped Trump win https://t.co/GgRhmlDm3X

— John Harwood (@JohnJHarwood) November 3, 2019

Well according to Dr. Jack Ryan, the biggest threat isn't Russia, China, NK etc. As he lays it out in Episode 1, it is Venezuela.

Season 2 didn't turn out the way I thought it would but still enjoyable. Don't agree with his analysis though

Children were told to ‘build the wall’ at White House Halloween party

Add another thing to the list where this administration sounds more like North Korea than America

If this was done in a school people would be fired

Well, yea. A school would have higher standards.

So … the Justin Amash drama continues. He's almost certain not to win reelection as an independent, and the word traitor is being thrown about casually in his direction. Generally because he hasn't been a 'good Republican' or somesuch, which apparently means checking his logic and integrity at the door.

One of those running against him is Tom Norton. He's put up an ad lumping Amash in with Tlaib, Schiff, etc. and claiming that the entire impeachment thing violates the due process protections of the Constitution, and that therefore Amash is violating his oath by voting for it. Except of course that nothing in those protections is remotely relevant to impeachment in any way, shape, or form. And Amash is also getting hit by the 'aroma of impropriety' attacks as it is now being claimed (falsely, from what I can see) that he is disloyal to America, wanted Trump impeached from the beginning, and that the proof of this is that he has some connection to businesses operating in China. And since we all hate China … case closed.

I'm so ashamed that I used to live in and still have a great connection to this district. In a way it's probably best for Amash not to be re-elected. His constituents don't deserve him.

It is one year out, but this is what I am afraid of: Upshot


Biden is the only one beating Trump in the battle ground states, but that is by 1 point in each (ie. most likely not). I see very little hope here. I think it is likely we will see an even larger popular vote loss, but an even bigger Electoral college win.

Yeah frankly I will be shocked if Biden gets nominated and also even more shocked if the Dems win the White House.

Last night Trump called for the GOP to release their own versions of deposition transcripts. I can't imagine anyone is that dumb, but then again there is the Freedumb Caucus.

He doesn't get all the credit but he does get some credit.

He's playing it smart by making nice with China right now. Talk of recession has receded and continued strong market, strong economy (for many) and low unemployment is going to be real bad news for the Dems.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/04/dow-...-marriott.html

None of that matters as long as democrat voters...vote.

I'm already seeing all the threats on reddit by Dems to sit 2020 out unless their candidate gets nominated. (this seems to be particularly popular among Sanders supporters).

Could be bots, could be trolls, but I think a lot of people do think that way.

I think a lot of it is probably bots, mixed in with a few who are purity testing candidates. Not trying to 'No True Scottsman' it, but, I would imagine that an actual Sanders supporter would understand that sitting out 2020 because Sanders didn't get the nomination, is basically voting for trump. But, there's always a percentage of any group that are going to be outliers. The good news is, democrat voters out number republican voters, it's unfortunate that it's like trying to herd cats to get democrat voters to vote though.

They threw temper tantrums in 2016 too. Sanders supporters tend to be young millennials that don't really understand the political systems and just want him to win and fuck everyone else along the way.

If they can't see that that was a losing strategy at this point, they deserve what we'll get. I will vote for whoever has a D next to their name on the ballot next fall.

Were they the ones calling themselves Bernie Bros? I honestly can't remember. But the ridiculous, 'all or nothing', attitude is one of the reasons we have one of the worst occupants of the white house ever and a senate that's complicit with him.


Same here. I'll hold my nose if it's Biden, but, will not withhold my vote.

This tragic story is basically a gift wrapped present for Trump:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/05/ameri...der/index.html

It's funny, because an American group who left the country to escape American laws, but maintained dual citizenship, because they wanted to stay seems to be right up trump's alley as targets. It would be consistent for him to say, "they left our great country, died tragically outside of it, but that's what you get when you run away and don't stay and help make america great again."


I am curious though. He would love to take a step from Erdogan's playbook and clear out a big ass buffer zone and basically annex the area in the name of American security. That too, would fit with his populist theories. I'm curious to see if he doesn't try and force something like that. It would be heinous to a neighbor, but his offer of the military to 'help' isn't a far stretch away if you expand it.



The drug gangs are so pervasive and run so much of northern Mexico now, it truly is sad. That is exactly what a country with a weak centralized government looks like. It needs to be strong enough to deal with things on a local level, even if it means working against the locally influenced drug lords. The incident with Chapo's son being a prime example of a structural failure on so many levels. Mexico is basically Iraq. You can pump so much cash and influence into it to try and get what you want, but you sometimes only get what you get.



I love Mexico. The people that I've met there are fantastic. The government can't do what it needs to protect them, because the drug trade is probably propping up a decent % of the GDP. That doesn't make it right though, and it comes with incredible costs, and basically cedes power from the government. I don't think that ever should be the case.

I mean, at this point, why not just annex Mexico? Then once things stabilize, give them an independence referendum.

This latest Sonland thing - where he is reversing his prior testimony - is the least surprising development. He went early. He lied because he's a political crony, just a super wealthy dude who really wanted to be an ambassador, so he gave enough money to Trump and his dreams came true. Being a crony and a sycophant, he did his master's bidding and lied.

Then, you have all of these seasoned, professional diplomats and civil servants with impeccable credentials come forth and swear under oath that there was a quid pro quo.

Once this gets out, the GOP changes their strategy from "No quid pro quo" to "there ain't nothing wrong with a quid pro quo here, it happens all of the time! Just part of doing business." So, Sonland goes back and says, "oh yeah, NOW I remember the whole quid pro quo thing. Sure."

The current Republican party has zero morals. It's pretty shocking.

Well it was either that or go to jail for his support of Trump. I've never been to Ukraine or elsewhere in Europe, but have to think it looks a lot better than jail.


Edit: That was pretty smart of the Dems to get his testimony amongst the first and behind closed doors.

Trump
Pence
Barr
Pompeo
Perry
Mulvaney
Sondland
(who knows who else...)

It's a real problem that their won't be the will to get rid of all of the guys that were involved in these schemes.

I may not like the man, but I know a value when I see one. This only cost me $25 and it glows in the dark:

Can't even be mad at that.

Fucking Kentucky.

After tonight there won't be a Democrat in any of the major state posts. Despite the governor creating a job that pays over 200k per year and giving it to a buddy. It's just pointless. Fuck em.


{edit:knee jerk emotional reaction. It's way closer than I expected.}

Looks like Beshear was able to flip a number of Eastern KY counties, and coincidentally, two in the Northern Cincy burbs, including mine. He's up by 20k with 92% in. The east was a huge trump stronghold, but Bevin's run against the unions and the teachers really cost him out there.


Every other major state race went R. This state.......


In 2015 Bevin got 511k votes and a total of 938k votes were cast.


In 2019 Bevin has gotten over 660k votes and a total of 1.3M votes have already been counted (95%). {edit: 1.4M now at 99%}

Never cry until the last vote is counted PM. :) And yeah Kentucky!

So how likely do you think McConnell is in play now? I know the emails from the various DNC get out the votes groups were pushing big to beat Bevin in order to take out Mitch in 2020

Trump must be in a rage considering he campaigned there last night for Bevin.