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JPhillips 10-04-2019 11:50 AM

Trump said that he doesn't know most of his ambassadors, "I don't even know their names." Somehow that's supposed to make him look better.

thesloppy 10-04-2019 12:00 PM

I dunno where it belongs in the healthcare conversation, but where I live one of our largest healthcare providers is ostensibly a Catholic non-profit organization....but their MO as a religious non-profit healthcare provider is not to keep profit margins low & provide low-cost healthcare, they are keeping their margins high and investing those profits into grabbing as much real estate & property as possible.

QuikSand 10-04-2019 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 3252447)
Earlier in this thread I compared Trump to Slobodan Milosevic. That's looking more accurate by the day.


Side story, but it connects...

Had friends and we used to play board games, including a complicated one called "Road to the White House." A solid presidential campaign sim, I'd recommend it if you can stomach a 3-hour event, at least your first few times.

Anyway, in the game, candidates could have ratings in lots of different aspects, which would carry benefits or penalties based on things that came up at various times during the game. Lots of drawing of cards, unfolding of events, changing of active issues.

So, your candidate would be spelled out in a card, a little like playing D&D. Your standard progressive guy might have ratings like Protect Environment +4 and Support Major Cities +3. Another person's more conservative candidate would have ratings like Pro-Immigration -4 and Domestic Spending -5. Things like that, where it's fairly easy to understand various candidates having either a positive or a negative number. Then, when a related event comes up, you might get a benefit or curse based on your candidate's rating there, and whether it appealed to specific states. Anyway, that's a main function of the game.

Most of the ratings made sense. But some seemed odd. My friends and I would laugh at the rating of "Pro Tyrants." Pro-Education... okay, I get it. Pro-Banks... okay, I get it. But... who the fuck is actually "Pro-Tyrants?"

Anyway... what seemed like a funny joke then seems less so now. This President is clearly as "Pro Tyrants" as the scale allows. Go figure.

JPhillips 10-04-2019 08:04 PM

Some of this has already been reported, but holy hell...


PilotMan 10-04-2019 08:11 PM

The New Republican Revolution continues. This from our esteemed micro trump in Kentucky. His opponent trying to thread the needle between opposing Bevin, while still hoping to appeal enough to the trump supporters that cover the entire state. So he's not even coming up with a position regarding the impeachment of the president. Meanwhile....



Bevin Would Accept Foreign Help To Investigate Political Rivals

Radii 10-04-2019 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CU Tiger (Post 3252471)
I definitely see the point you make, however wouldn't it also in theory increase the number of providers who accept Medicare hence making a transition to Universal Medicare easier?


Quick googles seem to indicate that 2% of medical providers do not accept medicare. I'm not sure how to analyze that but my gut feeling is that it might not be as big a problem as we might think or might be told sometimes? Of course, its a huge problem any time a doctor changes from accepting medicare to not accepting it for all of that doctor's retirement age patients :(


I was going to point out that, anecdotally, all of the customers for the company I work for are medical providers. We have 350 active customers and likely another 50-100 that have signed with us and left over the last 15 years. Out of that 400-500 providers that we service, one of them does not take medicare.

GrantDawg 10-05-2019 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radii (Post 3252507)
Quick googles seem to indicate that 2% of medical providers do not accept medicare. I'm not sure how to analyze that but my gut feeling is that it might not be as big a problem as we might think or might be told sometimes? Of course, its a huge problem any time a doctor changes from accepting medicare to not accepting it for all of that doctor's retirement age patients :(


I was going to point out that, anecdotally, all of the customers for the company I work for are medical providers. We have 350 active customers and likely another 50-100 that have signed with us and left over the last 15 years. Out of that 400-500 providers that we service, one of them does not take medicare.



The vast majority of providers do take it. The purpose of this has nothing to do with getting more providers. It has everything to do with making Medicare-For-All less affordable, AND eventually cutting back medicare drastically to seniors. The president had already proposed a budget with huge slashes in medicare funding. Now his plan is to multiply the expense of medicare so high to destroy the system.

QuikSand 10-05-2019 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radii (Post 3252507)
Quick googles seem to indicate that 2% of medical providers do not accept medicare. I'm not sure how to analyze that but my gut feeling is that it might not be as big a problem as we might think or might be told sometimes?


I work in politics, not medicine, so asterisk this. But, let's not lose sight of simple human weakness being part of this. LOTS of people confuse the terms "Medicaid" (health care for poor people) and "Medicare" (health care for old people). At least in this area Medicare (old) gets you in the door virtually everywhere, while Medicaid (poor) leaves you with a much narrower seelction of providers.

It's absolutely possible that some of the perception gap regarding Medicare acceptance traces back to something that simple. A doc/office notes "we do not accept Medicaid clients" and someone along the way mistakenly hears/understands that to reference old people and the program that Bernie Sanders keeps talking about.

JPhillips 10-05-2019 08:09 PM

NK says the nuclear talks have broken down, but the US is saying no they haven't. I'm not sure that even Putin has played Trump better than Kim.

JPhillips 10-05-2019 08:33 PM

dola

Pompeo, former Director of the CIA, says he supports Trump in trying to find out if Ukraine partnered with the DNC to frame the Russians for interference in the 2016 election.

JFC.

Thomkal 10-05-2019 08:49 PM

And now the story is I didn't even want to make the call, but the soon to be resigning Rick Perry persuaded me to do it. Nothing in any of the transcripts mentions Perry as the reason behind the call but don't let evidence get in the way of a good lie.

tarcone 10-05-2019 08:52 PM

When does the federal government start working for the people?

A bunch of jack asses. All of them.

cuervo72 10-05-2019 09:04 PM

The ‘Never Trump’ Coalition That Decided Eh, Never Mind, He’s Fine

I Support the President - The Resurgent

QuikSand 10-05-2019 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erickson (Post 3252577)
What I see is a group of people who have interpreted every single thing the President has done in the worst possible light to continue to do so.


Point conceded, I'm a guilty party. I don't use that as an offramp, but I think there's truth to it.

JPhillips 10-05-2019 10:15 PM

Erickson never deals with the reality, though, that Trump is different, more extreme than anyone who has come before him. Surely, some amount of criticism beyond what is typical is expected and appropriate give Trump's norm breaking at home and coddling of some of the world's worst leaders abroad? Without acknowledging any of that, and instead falling back on media bias and Dem hatred, to me it comes off as just a lengthier version of, "But my judges."

QuikSand 10-06-2019 05:10 AM

Dean Gloster on Twitter: "I don't know who needs to hear this, but back in the day, when I was a lawyer, over 30 years, I represented 2 high-functioning narcissistic sociopaths.
So I know how the endgame is going to be played out:
Bail out now, enablers. Quit. Cut your best deal. 1/x… https://t.co/lNtBFtjjy8"


Thread

JPhillips 10-06-2019 07:50 AM

A second intelligence whistle blower has now come forward.

JPhillips 10-06-2019 08:52 AM

dola

Looks like a lot of the GOP is now going all in on, the Ukrainians did it, not the Russians.

They aren't a Fox News party, they are an InfoWars party.

GrantDawg 10-06-2019 08:56 AM

The defense now is that Trump "wasn't serious" when he asked China to investigate Biden. In the end, it is the "please don't believe what the President says or does" theory.

Lathum 10-06-2019 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg (Post 3252601)
The defense now is that Trump "wasn't serious" when he asked China to investigate Biden. In the end, it is the "please don't believe what the President says or does" theory.


Yet Trump has been spending the better part of the last week annihilating Schiff over parodying his call.

GrantDawg 10-06-2019 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3252602)
Yet Trump has been spending the better part of the last week annihilating Schiff over parodying his call.



Didn't you know parodying the president is treason? At least, the what Trump believes and will make so once he dissolves congress and has all power.

PilotMan 10-06-2019 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg (Post 3252601)
The defense now is that Trump "wasn't serious" when he asked China to investigate Biden. In the end, it is the "please don't believe what the President says or does" theory.





Except when the president literally says "Don't believe what you see or read, only what I tell you."

NobodyHere 10-06-2019 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg (Post 3252604)
Didn't you know parodying the president is treason? At least, the what Trump believes and will make so once he dissolves congress and has all power.


Unnamed sources have reported that Trump is working with alien powers in order to eliminate congress.


JPhillips 10-06-2019 11:07 AM

I am more certain than ever that this can't end before Trump goes full Q.

cuervo72 10-06-2019 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3252600)
dola

Looks like a lot of the GOP is now going all in on, the Ukrainians did it, not the Russians.

They aren't a Fox News party, they are an InfoWars party.


Well, it makes them look more and more like Vlad's party. "Wasn't us. Was those guys. (You know, the guys we took land from and are still attacking.) THEY are the bad ones."

JPhillips 10-06-2019 09:31 PM

Click through to see total effective tax rates for various income groups over time.

Quote:

For the first time on record, the 400 wealthiest Americans last year paid a lower total tax rate — spanning federal, state and local taxes — than any other income group, according to newly released data.


https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...gtype=Homepage

Ben E Lou 10-07-2019 07:35 AM

Unfathomable betrayal of the Kurds.


Potential silver lining: early reports make it look like Republicans are going to fight him on this one and win. Maybe a good humiliation will cause him to go off the rails enough for the Rs to get this clown outta there.

Ben E Lou 10-07-2019 07:37 AM

Least surprising news in all this: Pentagon completely blindsided.

NobodyHere 10-07-2019 08:40 AM

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/07/polit...uit/index.html

Chances of Twitter Rant: Extremely High

Grab Popcorn and Take Cover

PilotMan 10-07-2019 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3252668)
Unfathomable betrayal of the Kurds.


Potential silver lining: early reports make it look like Republicans are going to fight him on this one and win. Maybe a good humiliation will cause him to go off the rails enough for the Rs to get this clown outta there.



I think you're failure is you still don't fully grasp the narcissistic personality disorder. There is no humiliation for them. There are no others. There is nothing more important then they are and they are ALL that matters. They are unable to even feel humiliation, because they are being treated so unfairly (again the person centered viewpoint). Loyalty only matters as to who will enable them. That's it.

Ben E Lou 10-07-2019 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotMan (Post 3252679)
I think you're failure is you still don't fully grasp the narcissistic personality disorder. There is no humiliation for them. There are no others. There is nothing more important then they are and they are ALL that matters. They are unable to even feel humiliation, because they are being treated so unfairly (again the person centered viewpoint). Loyalty only matters as to who will enable them. That's it.

I'm not talking about how he sees it. I'm talking about the rage he'll fly into when the headlines and "the shows"--even on Fox--are variations of "humiliating reversal for Trump in Syria." Maybe he'll piss off enough Republicans to seal his own fate.

Ben E Lou 10-07-2019 09:09 AM

Dola:


My baseline assumption here is that the only thing that moves the needle in the Senate is the court of public opinion. They won't find their spines themselves, but if the opinion polls (now rising in favor of removal) show the support of a clear majority of the country, it could change things. Who was it that said a good politician is one who figures out what direction people are going, then takes a shortcut through the woods to get out in front and make folks think he is leading them?

Thomkal 10-07-2019 09:22 AM

Even Lindsay Graham said he was a liar about Isis being defeated on Fox this morning. Gee maybe Dems could be right on most of the other lies too?


Lindsey Graham


I don’t know all the details regarding President Trump’s decision in northern Syria. In process of setting up phone call with Secretary Pompeo. If press reports are accurate this is a disaster in the making.

QuikSand 10-07-2019 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3252681)
Dola:


My baseline assumption here is that the only thing that moves the needle in the Senate is the court of public opinion. They won't find their spines themselves, but if the opinion polls (now rising in favor of removal) show the support of a clear majority of the country, it could change things. Who was it that said a good politician is one who figures out what direction people are going, then takes a shortcut through the woods to get out in front and make folks think he is leading them?


Agreed. So, if you're watching polls, and so forth, with an eye toward impeachment or other short term issues, the most essential thing is "Trump job approval among Republican voters." This weekend, Trump tweeted out a graphic with that number at 95%... even if it's a baloney number like Rasmussen per usual, the fact/impression that nearly all the GOP voters are now Trump voters is his cudgel. There is no more Republican Party, there's just him... and be assured that Ben Sasse and that ilk all know it.

JPhillips 10-07-2019 09:46 AM

I think the Kurd decision is shameful, but damn there's a lot of irresponsible rhetoric being thrown around. Turkey is a NATO ally. Yes, they have recently been difficult, but our foreign policy does not recognize them as anything but an ally.

As to Trump, I think there is a tipping point, but I'm unsure as to whether we will ever get there. If we do, the collapse in support will be very quick, probably less than a week for a mass of elected officials.

There is one other avenue to get Trump out, big donors. If enough of them bail the GOP for an election cycle, that would change the calculas quickly.

molson 10-07-2019 09:54 AM

Trump has announced this before, but this time he's announcing it contemporaneous with a timetable. Seems like it's something he feels he HAS to do while he's in office. Maybe a last payment for a deal, a last blackmail request, whatever.

Though, it does feel a little, like with the free trade stuff, that Trump is launching another party ideology swap. The most recent polls seem to see that the Democrats and Republicans are almost exactly even on whether they want any troops in Syria - 60% of each do. I'd bet the numbers would have been different a few years ago. It seems Dems stopped talking about the pointlessness of middle east troop deployment and "endless wars" once Trump started picking up that rhetoric a few years ago.

Warhammer 10-07-2019 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 3252686)
Though, it does feel a little, like with the free trade stuff, that Trump is launching another party ideology swap. The most recent polls seem to see that the Democrats and Republicans are almost exactly even on whether they want any troops in Syria - 60% of each do. I'd bet the numbers would have been different a few years ago. It seems Dems stopped talking about the pointless of middle east troop deployment and "endless wars" once Trump started picking up that rhetoric a few years ago.


I think this is an issue for both sides unfortunately, and it needs to stop. Parties need to stand for things other than the opposite of what the other party stands for. It is ok for both parties to be for something....

Ben E Lou 10-07-2019 10:44 AM

He had me at "great and unmatched wisdom."

Jstraub 10-07-2019 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3252691)
He had me at "great and unmatched wisdom."


Just destroying it is not enough... It must also be obliterated.

QuikSand 10-07-2019 10:57 AM

I have let my staff know that I fully intend to start employing the phrase "I, in my great and unmatched wisdom" with absolute, unapologetic aplomb.

Radii 10-07-2019 11:02 AM

I'm using that in scrum tomorrow at work.

JediKooter 10-07-2019 11:06 AM

Oh...it's unmatched alright.

Thomkal 10-07-2019 11:09 AM

yeah republicans how do you feel about that "great and unmatched wisdom" right now?

ISiddiqui 10-07-2019 11:14 AM

Which economy has he before "totally destroy and obliterate"? I mean I know he's trying to do it to the US economy.

JPhillips 10-07-2019 11:46 AM

I'll reiterate, Turkey is a NATO ally.

RainMaker 10-07-2019 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3252707)
I'll reiterate, Turkey is a NATO ally.


Ally in name only these days. Erogan has been real cozy with Putin.

Regardless, another huge win for Putin.

RainMaker 10-07-2019 12:01 PM


molson 10-07-2019 12:05 PM

I'm going to be in Istanbul next week, I'll get to the bottom of this.

Kodos 10-07-2019 12:17 PM

Make sure to ask for dirt on the Bidens!

ISiddiqui 10-07-2019 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3252708)
Ally in name only these days. Erogan has been real cozy with Putin.


So has Trump.

JPhillips 10-07-2019 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 3252708)
Ally in name only these days. Erogan has been real cozy with Putin.

Regardless, another huge win for Putin.


But the name matters. We're still obligated to come to their defense as they are ours. My pessimistic prediction of what happens over this ends with Trump withdrawing from NATO.

SackAttack 10-07-2019 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3252691)
He had me at "great and unmatched wisdom."


Pretty sure "if you do anything I decide I don't like I'll destroy your economy" blasted for the world to see is an act of war, and only Congress can declare war.

Add another one to the list of impeachable offenses.

JediKooter 10-07-2019 01:27 PM

One things for sure, Trump is good at destroying things...steaks, airlines, casinos, universities, marriages...

tzach 10-07-2019 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3252691)
As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over...
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 7, 2019
He had me at "great and unmatched wisdom."



this sounds so much like a quote that could come from a Civilization game

PilotMan 10-07-2019 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SackAttack (Post 3252717)
Pretty sure "if you do anything I decide I don't like I'll destroy your economy" blasted for the world to see is an act of war, and only Congress can declare war.

Add another one to the list of impeachable offenses.



It is nearly the exact thing that even 10 years ago would have come from Lil' Kim and Ahmadinejad would have spouted off and we would have laughed and laughed at the crazy mad man with his delusions of grandeur.

NobodyHere 10-07-2019 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3252677)
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/07/polit...uit/index.html

Chances of Twitter Rant: Extremely High

Grab Popcorn and Take Cover


Looks like a stay was ordered

Edward64 10-07-2019 10:00 PM

I'm all for bringing the troops home from Syria and Iraq but there has to be a better way than to just desert allies.

This looks like Trump's "line in the sand" where Turkey will likely cross it and Trump won't do much.

Edward64 10-07-2019 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tzach (Post 3252720)
this sounds so much like a quote that could come from a Civilization game


Hah, that's a good one.

Atocep 10-07-2019 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3252757)
I'm all for bringing the troops home from Syria and Iraq but there has to be a better way than to just desert allies.

This looks like Trump's "line in the sand" where Turkey will likely cross it and Trump won't do much.


We had the Kurds remove border fortifications and fall back in order to create a safe zone. Then a month later we bailed on them and let Turkey attack. It's sickening what we did here.

NobodyHere 10-07-2019 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 3252761)
We had the Kurds remove border fortifications and fall back in order to create a safe zone. Then a month later we bailed on them and let Turkey attack. It's sickening what we did here.


Yeah this is what gets me if all this is right and reports are also saying that Turkey is bombing Kurdish areas.

I've generally felt that we should get out of Syria (and Afghanistan for that matter) and I know that a clean break is unreal.

But this just feels like Trump just watched Revenge of the Sith and wanted to use Order 66.

Edward64 10-07-2019 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3252765)
But this just feels like Trump just watched Revenge of the Sith and wanted to use Order 66.


My guess is Occam's Razor says it was because he was PO'd with all the impeachment mess and so he went into the call without really thinking things through (or listening to advice), played it by ear (unprepared), and wanted to distract by coming up with something else the MSM can chase instead of impeachment.

Unfortunately, his closest allies (e.g. Fox News etc.) are all telling him it was a bad decision. So he is probably in a worse mood now.

And in the meantime, nothing much happening in NK or China.

JPhillips 10-08-2019 08:25 AM

The State Dept is refusing to let the Ambassador to the EU testify before congress.

Thomkal 10-08-2019 03:58 PM

Senate Intelligence Committee releases report on social media influence on the 2016 election. Somehow they found out the Internet Research Association (IRA). a Russian group, celebrated Trump's win by opening a bottle of champagne and toasting. "We made America great again."


Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

GrantDawg 10-08-2019 04:16 PM

The White House releases a letter stating they will no longer be giving anything to congress, saying the impeachment inquiry is unconstitutional. They are basically saying congress has no oversight power.

JediKooter 10-08-2019 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg (Post 3252833)
The White House releases a letter stating they will no longer be giving anything to congress, saying the impeachment inquiry is unconstitutional. They are basically saying congress has no oversight power.


Soooo, checks and balances are now unconstitutional? So how soon before he declares himself Emperor of America?

Atocep 10-08-2019 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg (Post 3252833)
The White House releases a letter stating they will no longer be giving anything to congress, saying the impeachment inquiry is unconstitutional. They are basically saying congress has no oversight power.


It's a delay tactic and an attempt to paint it as a partisan witch hunt as they did Mueller Report. If this moves as quickly as Dems would like it to its more difficult for the White House to counter punch while the longer drags out the more likely the public is to get tired of it and turn against it.

JPhillips 10-08-2019 05:28 PM

Yeah, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the GOP position is now that the President can't be investigated, can't be indicted, and can't be impeached.

cuervo72 10-08-2019 05:34 PM

So, wait - does Matt Gaetz actually think "kangaroo court" has anything to do with Captain Kangaroo??

thesloppy 10-08-2019 05:35 PM


JediKooter 10-08-2019 05:51 PM

I think Australia should challenge trump to a fight with a kangaroo.

Atocep 10-08-2019 07:05 PM

I think this article has become more relevant now than it was just a year ago.

How Congress Stopped Working — ProPublica

Chief Rum 10-08-2019 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediKooter (Post 3252836)
Soooo, checks and balances are now unconstitutional? So how soon before he declares himself Emperor of America?


Lathum once brought up the possibility of Trump refusing to leave office, which I put down as conspiracy theorist thinking, but for a moment, just consider if it happened.

Would there be another civil war?

Thomkal 10-08-2019 07:49 PM

I think the House has to start using their power to arrest people who resist subpoenas. Start with the ones that have already done so, then subpoena every high-level White House adminstrator and arrest them too.


I think violence is more than likely to happen now and probably against both parties.

Edward64 10-09-2019 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomkal (Post 3252848)
I think the House has to start using their power to arrest people who resist subpoenas. Start with the ones that have already done so, then subpoena every high-level White House adminstrator and arrest them too.

I think violence is more than likely to happen now and probably against both parties.


If they ignore or refuse to testify and get sent to jail, can Trump pardon them?

I do agree that violence is more likely to happen. Per my other post of whether they should do impeachment proceedings now or wait till 2Q to better impact the elections ... I think they should do it now, get it over as soon as possible - win, lose or draw.

Edward64 10-09-2019 07:26 AM

In addition to Trade & IP, "freedom of speech" issues are coming to the forefront with China.

I get China blasting Apple on app to aid/track protesters, but NBA or Blizzard comments, criticisms etc. is an overreach. Where does it end, can't say anything negative at all about China?

I do want Trump to continue course and play hard ball with China but he is weakened, distracted etc. Unless China's economy crashes they have the luxury of waiting it out since they have Premier for life. It makes it more likely for Trump to cut a deal (any deal) and call it a win.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/09/stoc...ade-talks.html
Quote:

Bloomberg News reported, citing an official, China is prepared to accept a partial trade deal as long as no more tariffs are imposed by President Donald Trump.

The report added that Beijing would offer non-core concessions like purchases of agricultural products in return, but not budge on major sticking points between the two nations.

The unnamed official said, however, negotiators were not optimistic about securing a broad agreement that would fully end the trade conflict between the world’s two largest economies. Both sides are set for high-level trade negotiations in Washington on Thursday.

Lathum 10-09-2019 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 3252847)
Lathum once brought up the possibility of Trump refusing to leave office, which I put down as conspiracy theorist thinking, but for a moment, just consider if it happened.

Would there be another civil war?


I think it more likely a foreign power, China and/or Russia, invades us while we have a weakened government with a contested President.

Next Christmas we may all be speaking mandarin.

Chief Rum 10-09-2019 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3252877)
I think it more likely a foreign power, China and/or Russia, invades us while we have a weakened government with a contested President.

Next Christmas we may all be speaking mandarin.


Extremely unlikely. Neither of those countries have a ghost of a chance against the U.S. Navy, which is immensely larger and more technologically advanced than any other force by a wide margin.

And that's beside the point that, one, neither has anything to gain from the move as a net goal, and two, doing so woild immediately unite and radicalize Americans (armed Americans, generally) against one common enemy.

Of course, you're probably joking. I think.

albionmoonlight 10-09-2019 08:27 AM

There's no need for a foreign power to actually invade us. As Chief Rum points out, that comes with a lot of downsides.

All they need to do is what they have been doing--convince a large portion of Americans that they are better off with a foreign government controlling the country via a puppet GOP than letting the Dems be in charge.

That's actually working really well for them. If I were China/Russia, I'd just keep doing it.

Lathum 10-09-2019 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 3252879)
Extremely unlikely. Neither of those countries have a ghost of a chance against the U.S. Navy, which is immensely larger and more technologically advanced than any other force by a wide margin.

And that's beside the point that, one, neither has anything to gain from the move as a net goal, and two, doing so woild immediately unite and radicalize Americans (armed Americans, generally) against one common enemy.

Of course, you're probably joking. I think.


Not joking at all.

Do I think that is going to happen, no. Do I think it could happen? Yes. It’s clear we have a compromised leader on the White House. Why is it such a stretch our two biggest enemies wouldn’t take advantage of that to destroy us? I mean, what’s Russia’s end game in all of this?

Thomkal 10-09-2019 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3252875)
If they ignore or refuse to testify and get sent to jail, can Trump pardon them?

I do agree that violence is more likely to happen. Per my other post of whether they should do impeachment proceedings now or wait till 2Q to better impact the elections ... I think they should do it now, get it over as soon as possible - win, lose or draw.



I think he can do that, but so far he's pardoned nobody. I think Congress has more power to compell testimony from them, lose many of their 5th amendment rights about self-incrimination. Not a lawyer, but that was the talk when Trump was considering pardons for Manafort and the like. This article was from a couple years ago when Trump was considering using them:


Donald Trump Pardons: How a Pardon Could Backfire | Time

BYU 14 10-09-2019 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3252882)
Not joking at all.

Do I think that is going to happen, no. Do I think it could happen? Yes. It’s clear we have a compromised leader on the White House. Why is it such a stretch our two biggest enemies wouldn’t take advantage of that to destroy us? I mean, what’s Russia’s end game in all of this?


As treacherous as Russia is, they are really not that stupid. That end game could bring the world to the brink of destruction.

PilotMan 10-09-2019 09:01 AM

The battle of the future is autonomous and technological.

Everything from information and technology to culture and media. This is actually where the US is the weakest. Our tolerance for opposing views versus the monolithic state run narratives will be difficult to overcome. Attacks against power grids and strategic drone strikes will make for a constant, never ending war there is no escape from.

The power of the future is who gets to say the loudest that they won and that they ate right. Battlefields will rarely result is army versus army conflicts.

JediKooter 10-09-2019 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 3252847)
Lathum once brought up the possibility of Trump refusing to leave office, which I put down as conspiracy theorist thinking, but for a moment, just consider if it happened.

Would there be another civil war?


I don't think there will be another civil war. In a way, I personally feel like we are kind of in a 'cold civil war', but, if anything, you will have incidents here and there of violence like we have already seen these last few years since trump has been in office.

JPhillips 10-09-2019 09:11 AM

What we are learning is that the system is fragile enough that if the Senate doesn't care, Trump can do whatever he wants. Under these circumstances, there's not much an opposition can do to stop a largely lawless president.

Ben E Lou 10-09-2019 09:14 AM

Lots of Executive Time so far this morning.

JediKooter 10-09-2019 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3252891)
What we are learning is that the system is fragile enough that if the Senate doesn't care, Trump can do whatever he wants. Under these circumstances, there's not much an opposition can do to stop a largely lawless president.


It seems like the fear of not getting re-elected is greater than the problem of a criminal president and doing anything about it. I wonder if we can just Citizen's Arrest trump and take it out of the hands of the cowards in the senate?

NobodyHere 10-09-2019 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediKooter (Post 3252894)
It seems like the fear of not getting re-elected is greater than the problem of a criminal president and doing anything about it. I wonder if we can just Citizen's Arrest trump and take it out of the hands of the cowards in the senate?


Mace Windu tried that and it didn't go so well for him.

JediKooter 10-09-2019 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3252899)
Mace Windu tried that and it didn't go so well for him.


Too soon!

Ben E Lou 10-09-2019 12:09 PM

Turkey attacks. The blood of the Kurds is on the hands of every single Trump enabler.

One poll is up to 28% of Republicans supporting removal. Previously Trump-supporting pundits and R politicians appear to be furious with him. Ironic if Trump gets removed for being too much of a pacifist.

albionmoonlight 10-09-2019 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3252910)
Turkey attacks. The blood of the Kurds is on the hands of every single Trump enabler.

One poll is up to 28% of Republicans supporting removal. Previously Trump-supporting pundits and R politicians appear to be furious with him. Ironic if Trump gets removed for being too much of a pacifist.


There were good reasons for leaving Turkey. Agree or disagree with them, but they were there. There was also a good way to do it (i.e. with lots of planning and coordination).

Trump did it for bad reasons and in a ham-handed way.

The best analogy I saw is that the front door and a fifth story window are both ways to leave a building, but that does not mean that there isn't a difference between which way you choose.

(EDIT--To be clear, I actually don't know enough to know whether the good reasons for leaving outweighed the good reasons for staying. It is a hard problem that I don't know enough about. My point was only that the President's reasons were not deliberated in the way one would hope.)

Ben E Lou 10-09-2019 12:15 PM

Good gracious. Even Franklin Graham.

albionmoonlight 10-09-2019 12:53 PM

Now THIS I can relate to:

Kirk Cousins on call from the President: “Very random” – ProFootballTalk

If I were President, I'd totally use the perk of being able to call random famous people and have conversations with them whenever I want.

I mean, I wouldn't pick Kirk Cousins, but I get the impulse.

JediKooter 10-09-2019 12:54 PM

I wonder if he thought Cousins had some dirt on Biden.

Chief Rum 10-09-2019 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3252882)
Not joking at all.

Do I think that is going to happen, no. Do I think it could happen? Yes. It’s clear we have a compromised leader on the White House. Why is it such a stretch our two biggest enemies wouldn’t take advantage of that to destroy us? I mean, what’s Russia’s end game in all of this?


Russia and China are two very different countries. They don't particularly get along, and if it wasn't for the fact that there is almost nothing of value between the heavily populated east coast of China and the bulk of Russian population west of the Urals, they probably would have fought a war or two by now.

They certainly would not combine to take on the U.S. The U.S. controls the seas and through immense air power much of the land around all seas. Even together, China and Russia could not currently stand up to that. To have any chance of success they would have to somehow get their troops to U.S. borders. They would have to cross by land, over Alaska and Canada. They would have to send the bulk of their very large standing armies to stand a chance in such an invasion.

This would leave their homelands virtually undefended. Hong Kong would break away. Taiwan, Japan and South Korea would likely invade China. Eastern Europe and Turkey would invade Russia. NATO would come out completely on the U.S. side. Canada and Mexico would immediately join up with the U.S. as well.

I don't think you understand the Mount Everest of accomplishments it would take to actually invade the U.S., between geography, technological and financial superiority and a population more than willing to do "warhawk" and die on American ideals. It would be an utter and complete nightmare.

Izulde 10-09-2019 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 3252917)
Russia and China are two very different countries. They don't particularly get along, and if it wasn't for the fact that there is almost nothing of value between the heavily populated east coast of China and the bulk of Russian population west of the Urals, they probably would have fought a war or two by now.

They certainly would not combine to take on the U.S. The U.S. controls the seas and through immense air power much of the land around all seas. Even together, China and Russia could not currently stand up to that. To have any chance of success they would have to somehow get their troops to U.S. borders. They would have to cross by land, over Alaska and Canada. They would have to send the bulk of their very large standing armies to stand a chance in such an invasion.

This would leave their homelands virtually undefended. Hong Kong would break away. Taiwan, Japan and South Korea would likely invade China. Eastern Europe and Turkey would invade Russia. NATO would come out completely on the U.S. side. Canada and Mexico would immediately join up with the U.S. as well.

I don't think you understand the Mount Everest of accomplishments it would take to actually invade the U.S., between geography, technological and financial superiority and a population more than willing to do "warhawk" and die on American ideals. It would be an utter and complete nightmare.


Not to mention, if doomsday does come, it wouldn't be through a conventional war scenario like this - it'd be through exchange of nuclear arsenals.

Chief Rum 10-09-2019 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izulde (Post 3252918)
Not to mention, if doomsday does come, it wouldn't be through a conventional war scenario like this - it'd be through exchange of nuclear arsenals.


Ironically, I think this would happen, but not by the U.S., Russia or China. They would already have an understanding of the place that road leads to. No, it would far more likely be a small nuclear exchange on the Korean Peninsula or in Kashmir, which would happen because the big boys are off fighting their own war instead of minding the shop.

I think the one nuke the U.S. might consider dropping would be on any invasion force in the Vladivostok region preparing to cross over to Alaska-- but they prob wouldn't bother. Getting a cajillion troops through the inhospitable landscape of Alaska would be a Herculean achievement all on its own.

Ben E Lou 10-09-2019 01:51 PM

From #NeverTrump to big-time Trump enabler to #SwearInPenceTonight. An interesting journey




Ben E Lou 10-09-2019 02:40 PM

And now reports that Drudge is flipping on Trump.

JediKooter 10-09-2019 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3252924)
And now reports that Drudge is flipping on Trump.


My thinking is, if the media influencers (breitbart, fox, etc...) of his base are flipping, the more likelihood that the cowards in the senate will finally start to flip. I hope, but, not holding my breath.

NobodyHere 10-09-2019 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediKooter (Post 3252925)
My thinking is, if the media influencers (breitbart, fox, etc...) of his base are flipping, the more likelihood that the cowards in the senate will finally start to flip. I hope, but, not holding my breath.


So it wasn't the racism, the sexism, the scams, the paying off of porn stars, the cuddling up to Russia, the lies, the rampant deficit, failure to overturn the ACA, or the Ukraine calls, but the Kurds that may cause conservatives to flip on Trump?


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