PRESIDENTIAL HARASSMENT

Unanimous Senate vote to see the whistleblower complaint. Trump might well be thoroughly fucked now.

I wonder what the Ukrainian President is thinking about all of this. It would be great if we can get a copy of his transcripts.

Can someone give me a non-political description of what is going on with this Ukraine thing. I was camping for a few days and have missed everything, and can't find a brief description without either 1) the assumption that you know some background or 2) a heavy dose of "we got him now" or "another witch hunt" added in.

And the totally unsurprising response:

Facts be damned. Democrats are insisting this is their moment to impeach President Trump.

Speaker Pelosi’s decree changes nothing.https://t.co/xiNp1WXYoy

— Kevin McCarthy (@GOPLeader) September 24, 2019

The basic gist is that apparently Trump withheld funds allocated to Ukraine until they agreed to dig up/make up dirt on Biden and his son's dealings in the Ukraine. A whistleblower made a complaint back in August about what they overheard relating to this, and the whistleblower's complaints are not being forwarded on by the administration.

Thanks - so the Biden / Ukraine stuff is bunk? I'd have to assume so, because I'd think we use funds like that to get other governments to do what we want all the time.

According to everyone who has seriously looked into the issue, there's nothing to the Biden/Ukraine stuff. The timeline doesn't work, the pressure to remove the prosecutor came from a group of countries, and the new prosecutor had a much tougher/less corrupt reputation.

But, of course, none of that matters. Biden could have personally ordered a hit and what Trump did would still be a gross abuse of office. This isn't an either/or situation.

Why hasn't any reporter been dogged about getting a response to McCarthy saying he thought Putin had Trump on the payroll? He's a total disgrace.

Ok, here is where I get confused. As I stated previously, I assume we withhold (or threaten to) funds all the time to get countries to act how we want. Is it just that it could benefit him politically that is the issue here? Also, I keep hearing "treason" thrown around. I don't get how that would treason.:devil:

It's because it's asking a foreign government to intervene in our election that it's an issue.

To add to this and what's blown this scandal up is the fact that the whistleblower's complaint was deemed "serious and urgent" by the intel IG which by the spirit of the law means the complaint should head to congress for investigation. Instead, Trump's acting director of national intelligence took the complaint to the DOJ for guidance and both the White House and the DOJ are refusing to allow congress to see the complaint.

So the White House is trying to bury a complaint, we have a whistleblower that isn't being guaranteed any protections, and a congress that can't see a complaint they're legally obligated to see.

It is also a gross violation of Hunter Bidens civil liberties.

So if Biden wasn’t running for election this wouldn’t be an issue?

And even if the is running, is that treason?

I’m not trying to be an ass here, I’m just trying to figure out exactly what the line was that he crossed.

Publicly they're going to stand with Trump and see if public opinion (of their voters fuck everyone else) shifts and how much substance there is to the complaint. If opinion shifts and there's something to this then they'll try to find a way to distance themselves. Based on the number of congressional members that have retired since 2018 it's clear most hate dealing with Trump. They just don't have a way out without giving up national politics right now.

If this results in Trump getting 4 more years then that's what we deserve. At some point you have to draw the line at the weakening of our democracy and do the right thing.

Explain please. Asking another country to investigate a persons actions in that country violates his civil liberties?

Treason is thrown around way too much by both sides.

The primary issue is you have the President of the United States acting in his official capacity seeking election aid from a foreign government.

You also have the President violating Hunter Biden's civil liberties (Hunter Biden's own government is compelling a foreign government to investigate him), as Lathum mentioned and the use of extortion for political gain by our president.

The constitutional scholars I've read have said all 3 are clearly impeachable offenses.

Was just listening to FOX news in the car. They are actually sounding unbias for them. Hedging for sure. Then they had Matt Whittaker on who said Bill Barr will always chose to be transparent and I laughed and laughed.

“The President actually said to Nancy Pelosi, ‘Hey, can we do something about this whistleblower complaint, can we work something out.’ And she said ‘Yes, you can tell your people to obey the law.’ So she quickly swatted that down." - @HeidiNBC https://t.co/vtWnAww1ch

— MSNBC (@MSNBC) September 24, 2019

There is a tweet for everything..... has to be.

I don't watch any TV news, and I don't click on news video clips online, so I don't see a lot of Trump in action. If you're like me, you should take a quick peek in with what's going on with this guy, it's amazing:

Aaron Rupar on Twitter: "Trump ends his bilateral media availability with the Polish president by claiming that "if a Republican ever did what Joe Biden did ... they'd be getting the electric chair right now," before calling the assembled journalists "crooked as hell." 😳… https://t.co/mc9WhwDeE7"

When I was a kid Ronald Reagan was mocked for being a little folksy on occasion, I thought those criticisms were silly even then. What is happening with the office of the POTUS right now is mind-blowing.

If true, then he realizes he crossed a line and his presidency is in jeopardy. Which means he's likely to lash out far worse than usual.

There are some exceptionally optimistic people hanging around here and I think that it comes from the hope that something happens, but the reality is that all the R's are doing is making it look like something could happen. They realize that if they don't at least make it look like they tried, they are going to face an even greater uphill battle in 2020. Instead, they can kind of, sort of, go with it and come up with some other sort of plausible excuse for not going along. It's far beyond time that the D's start to talk past him and discuss the real people who are governing the country. Publicly marginalizing him that way, as if he no longer matters, would get under his skin so fast. It just seems like nothing really makes a difference anymore. The only real comments I hear are "he didn't lie under oath, and he wasn't recorded plotting against political opponents with government tools. It's like those are the only reasons and everything else is just crazy talk.

Donald J. Trump on Twitter: "Are you allowed to impeach a president for gross incompetence?"

Yes, yes there is a tweet for everything.

Once it hits a tipping point in polling they’ll serve him up. Pence is intertwined with a lot of these people. Plus he’s an easy sell to the GOTv Christian conservative block.

Giuliani is an interesting guy. I read in another article that he has exposure also. He is just as annoying as Trump except he only pops up occasionally.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...-news-ukraine/

He really should be zeroing in on Pizzagate. I mean, that's where the Deep State is really out of control. They're just out there, pulling all the strings, even his, and he's is virtually powerless to resist.

This won't end without Trump and company going full Q.

"Democrat party is covering up a pattern of corruption by the Obama cabinet".

How? You control the executive branch. If you have proof of something, then arrest them. Tell us what it is. It's like they are just stalling until Ukraine/Russia can manufacture some bogus evidence.

Transcripts just released. This should be a fun day of analysis.

They are staggering. I can't believe Trump released them. Without anything else, this is enough to be removed from office.

Makes one wonder how bad the full whistleblower complaint is if releasing this transcript is considered the best they can do for the President.

Literally one of the dumbest things he's done and that's saying a lot.

Of course a lot of his true believers are like "so what".

I haven't read the transcripts yet but haven't we been saying this for the last 3 scandals?

The real question is will any Republican senators budge on this.

I'm not saying he will be removed from office, but these transcripts lay out a clear reason to be removed from office. It's all there in black and white.

The whistleblower complaint must be nuclear if they thought releasing this instead would same them.

Also this isn't a transcript, it is a "memorandum of telephone conversation", which is a different thing.

He also asked in there to see if Hillary's email server was in Ukraine.

edit:
That's it, right there.

Trump doesn't speak that coherently.

Oh my goodness. He can't even fake a transcript properly because he has to make it seem like the Ukraine leaders are a bunch of MAGA heads:

The Office of Legal Counsel released an opinion that the DNI doesn't have to turn over the whistleblower complaint to Congress.

Given what they are willing to release, it must be terrible.

Heh. Well at least this part sounds like a word for word...

There’s audio of this, right? The audio dropping will surely be the final nail I’d hope.

I'm sure there is. Keep in mind the white house logged this call as a 30 minute conversation so what we're seeing here is likely the least damaging portion they could release.

There is no final nail. He will never be removed from office and his supporters will scream vindication.

the White House sent out an email with the talking points to accompany the release of the memo. To the Democrats. Which they then tried to recall.

He. Hires. The. Best. People.

These things come together quickly. This isn’t conjecture. It’s verifiable treason

:popcorn:

The accidentally mailed talking points memo.

Andrew Desiderio on Twitter: "Hmmm… The White House just sent its talking points on Ukraine to House Democrats.

Here are some screenshots, per source.… https://t.co/KkciCoH8gm"

FWIW, I think that Trump survives this (by survive, I mean remains President through his first term).

He's survived this long with all of his shenanigans. I'll believe he's out when he's actually out. Then, I don't think he goes peacefully.

Another thing, by naming Barr in the Ukraine phone call it pulls him into this investigation and he should be forced to recuse himself.

Shoutout to the PredictIt bettors who were involved in the "Will Trump win the 2019 Nobel Peace Prize" market yesterday. (He went from 3% to 2%)

PredictIt

LOL. Trump just stated that unfortunately, Pelosi is no longer Speaker of House.

Oh nothing, just the president of the United States announcing that Nancy Pelosi is no longer Speaker of the House. pic.twitter.com/WnLkdPJ1Wg

— Brian Tyler Cohen (@briantylercohen) September 25, 2019

It really wasn't Biden getting the prosecutor fired. He was just the guy the Obama administration sent. Pretty much every western country and most people in Ukraine wanted that prosecutor to be fired.

The fact Trump called Shokin good and fair is comical. I'd say sick but I honestly don't think he was smart enough to know what Shokin had done.

Reading up on this Crowdstrike server stuff and it sure seems like Trump was looking for Ukraine to give him "proof" that the DNC hack was an inside job and not the fault of the Russians.

Can the Senate Decline to Try an Impeachment Case? - Lawfare

Interesting. Senate could just decide not to hear the trial even if the House impeaches

He’s such a clown. How can anyone listen to this guy and think he’s anything but a buffoon.

Yeah, but that would be stupid b/c it lets Dems paint them as obstructing in a very-easy-for-low-information-voters-to-understand way.

Much easier to put on a short trial designed to let the President put on his defense and the acquit him on a party-line vote.

Was this word salad scheduled already as a debrief from the conference?

Trump just sold out Pence and told the world to ask the VP about his conversations with the Ukrainian President.

Do you think Pence did a spit take hearing that?

Well, if Pence gets impeached as well, and Nancy is no longer the Speaker of the House, who will be president?

Chuck Grassley according to a quick google search.

Don't get me started on my objections to the spit take. It's probably the most trivial hill I'm willing to die upon. :)

And if you work for the Trump Administration and aren't prepared for the knife in the back, then you haven't been paying attention at all.

Kiefer Sutherland

Dirk Schwenk on Twitter: "Page 3 references CROWDSTRIKE. Which means Trump, Ghouliani and Barr were ALSO obstructing the prosecution of Roger Stone. BOOOOOOOOOOM @File511 @lauferlaw… https://t.co/RpDbKIWYIb"

Whaaat.. plausible?

This gets to Ben’s theory. Maybe part of the reason the GOP is less willing to move on from Trump to Pence is that they are afraid that Trump will take Pence down out of spite if they go after him.

+1 for the TV reference :)

Trump will throw everyone under the bus, which is part of why the GOP is still so in lockstep with him.

So just thinking out loud but Romney probably really wants to be president and has a f-load of money and if Trump’s gone he can probably run the best full press move at the nomination.

So that’s 1/20 votes needed. If we give him the other two republican Mormons(Lee, crapo) we only need 17 more votes right?

Yup, and take his diehard supporters with him which then torpedoes the R's nationally for the next few cycles. And he's absolutely not above pushing the nuclear button if the party apparatus was to turn on him for whatever reason - they are in the Trump boat until he goes away at this point.

This has to reflect somewhat badly on Biden as well, right? No matter what you think his motives were, he still lobbied Ukraine to fire the prosecutor looking into his son's company. Or do we think he's more likely to get a sympathy bump in the polls from it? I guess that wouldn't be surprising seeing as this is all a gross reality show based on news headlines these days anyway.

I sure hope this helps to torpedo Biden as well, but that's not based on anything other than my own wishful thinking. Like you say, simply keeping his name in headlines could just as easily turn out to be a positive when the dust settles, in today's fickle and chaotic climate. I would have to imagine that most of the more progressive candidates & voters are looking at this as a massive double win at the moment, though.

The problem I see or think about most I guess, is, who is there among Dem's that is honestly worth electing.

Warren? She's almost as hated as Hillary and less charismatic. This country is not going to elect a woman in this climate, its simply not ready yet.

Biden? Other than being Obama's bitch, what does he really offer? I've yet to see anything worthwhile from him.

Who else? I mean, dafuq are we supposed to vote for in 2020 "Anything but a Rep?"

Honestly, if a credible and non-senile third-party candidate emerged, I'd be down.

The front-runners for the Democratic nomination are all old farts. No more 70-year-olds. Don't care what their proposals are.

But absent that? Fuck yes. Punish the absolute shit out of the Republican Party for their weaselly submission to Trumpism in the name of power.

I want 'em in the wilderness for a generation. I don't mean a political generation, I mean an actual, "children are born, grown, and having children of their own" generation. Maybe that way the Republicans who replace these fucks will have some semblance of honor and we can start having an actual choice again.

For me at this point, it is pretty much anyone but Trump.

Yes. But then there's the fact that this map happened 10 years after Nixon resigned:



I am sure that, in 1974, something like this would have seemed like three generations off.

Things are different. And, like you say, Trump may fight against the GOP in a way that Nixon never would. But the GOP might be slightly more afraid of a post-Trump era than it needs to be.

I have no faith in our government to handle this the right way. Trump needs to go and I don't think that's going to happen.

:(

Feels like the hiding documents on a top secret server to avoid embarrassment, could be the Trump version of the Nixon tapes. What other politically embarrassing stuff was hidden there?

In the declassified appendix of the doc there is other mentions of things being hidden on this top secret server.

Somebody please put Nunes out to pasture as well.

Say wha? Is this based on any favorable/unfavorable numbers?

So the Republican angle is to play this as leaking of information is the real scandal here. Not the content. Laughable

I find it laughable that this all comes back to documents on a server. BUT HER EMAILZS!!

I find it amazing (but also not) that Reps like that hack Jim Jordan keep hammering the fact that the whistleblower got the info second or third hand when we all read the notes of the call yesterday and saw what he said.

And it matches. The stupidity is just too much

At this point I honestly think a full flush would be an improvement.
Seriously Id take a complete new Executive, Legislative and Judicial Branch comprised entirely of people with zero experience over what we currently have on BOTH sides of the aisle.

Not ready to elect a woman?

Let's not forget that Hilary won the popular vote by several million.

So you'd be comfortable with all if the power and leverage being simply handed over to lobbyists? Because any sort of defense and maneuvering would be absent when there are neophytes running the country.

I get that it sounds good as a wish, but I think the practicalities of it aren't really what you're wishing for.

I wonder if a lot of the public reaction will come down to how people view the different types of "interference" that foreign countries can have on our elections.

If you ask doctors whether all of those steak dinners that they have with drop-dead gorgeous 25 year old pharmaceutical reps affects their prescribing decisions, some huge percentage of them will say it does not.

But, unless pharmaceutical companies have decided to spend lots of money on steak dinners for no reason, it seems very likely that these things DO affect doctor's prescribing decision.

Now, it isn't that the doctors are consciously lying. They are instead self-deluded. Each doctor seems himself as a brilliant man of science who would not be swayed by flattery and steak dinners. But, as human beings, most of them are. They are being subtly manipulated, and they don't even know it.

So, if there is election interference of the sort of the President hiring Russian hackers to break into voting machines and change the numbers, then I think that most people would see that as horrible election interference.

However, if (as is much more likely the case) the interference is along the lines of "discredit my opponents;" "Run social media campaigns in favor of me and against my opponents;" "Coordinate with me to create distractions that will make me look good and my opponents look bad," then we might have something like the doctor problem outlined above.

Those are all examples of illegal foreign interference in our elections. And they all do work to make the elections less free and less fair. But in order for people to understand that, they have to be willing to admit to themselves that they can be manipulated by things like social media campaigns and advertising and false news stories. And most people don't want to admit that to themselves.

"I am a smart voter. I am choosing to vote based on who is the best candidate. I am too smart to be swayed by advertising." Everyone thinks that about themselves. And everyone is wrong. We are all swayed by advertising. That's why every company/brand in the world has a marketing department.

So, if it comes out that Trump totally 100% is getting foreign countries to manipulate our elections, but that manipulation is anything short of actual hacking of voting machines, we could see a big shrug from the voters.

I think for some people they think what is the difference between this and a PAC or some other organization running negative ads or trying to support a candidate.

There is the added aspect of Trump withholding desperately needed military aid that was bipartisanly approved by Congress to an ally if the country doesn't dig up or create dirt on Trump's leading political opponent. Basically, "help me tarnish my opponent or go fuck yourself and your shithole country".

To be fair, it might not have just been about Biden, Trump may also have needed to freeze that military aid to pay back Russia for helping him win the previous election.

538 has gone from lukewarm, at best, on impeachment to this is some pretty serious shit. Very, very early polling isn't looking very good for Trump on this either. 55% are in favor of impeachment if Trump did what he is accused of and only 25% against it according to YouGov.

“I want to know who’s the person, who’s the person who gave the whistle-blower the information? Because that’s close to a spy,” he continued. “You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? The spies and treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now.”

Uh...

stable genius

True.

The report shows that the concern was more aligned, not necessarily withholding military aid, which is reported, that the Ukrainian President may not have even known, but the withholding of attention, namely a visit with the White House, that he wanted to show his strength in his country and his ties to the west. That is much easier to prove as a quid pro quo than the military aid, and while it may not seem like much, when you're dealing with the type of power discrepancy between the two countries, it's substantial.

Rudy to The Atlantic magazine