Russians should be banned from anything Nuclear. they are dangerous.

EDIT: Just watched Chernobyl

EDIT, EDIT: Im naive

Do you think they should be able to round up anyone and detain them until family members show a birth certificate? Plenty of people get pulled over without a license and don't get taken in to prove their citizenship.

Also didn't see any executives coming out in handcuffs? Surely they are being arrested too for committing the crime of hiring illegal immigrants?

If they were hiring people without any paperwork, it should be easy to have probable cause on the management/owners. If there was paperwork, it should be very difficult to just round up 680 people for not having legal status.

Round them up? No, not a fan of that. Detain them when they have been detained for other reasons, such as doing something illegal? Don't have a problem with that.

Anyone who is a naturalized citizen or a resident alien or on a visa should have that stuff nearby. I feel the same way at the restaurant when someone orders an alcoholic drink but doesn't have their ID.

Why doesn't this apply to born citizens like myself? Why don't I have to have my birth certificate on me at all times? How do they know I'm not an illegal?

Zero chance they didn't know what they were doing.

Most IDs aren't proof of citizenship. There are some other options, but for most people that means a birth certificate or a passport. Not many people could prove citizenship on demand, it just isn't common to carry those documents.

You should have some citizenship proof, but police are usually going off of reasonable suspicion, and you won't feel like anyone but a natural born citizen to them.

Call it profiling, if you like, but it's reality.

But if it's possible your citizenship will be questioned, it is sensible to have those documents quickly available, so that the necessary databases could be quickly consulted. They don't solve the problem, or provide real proof in and of themselves, but it's stupid not to have them if you're reasonably sure your ctiizenship could be questioned. Just common sense.

What's the melanin cut-off point for when you have to carry your birth certificate with you? There are plenty of illegal immigrants from Asia and Europe here. If this is really about fighting illegal immigration, you'd think everyone would face the same scrutiny.

Well to answer your question:


But on the other hand what do you think the ratio is between illegal immigrants from Europe and illegal immigrants from central America?

And I would hope that these raids are being conducted with some kind of intelligence behind them saying there were a lot of illegal immigrants working at these places. And if any of the business owners knowingly hired illegals immigrants then they should be arrested too.

#thepriceoffreedom

My wife got about 6.5 weeks of summer vacation as a teacher. There’s basically no benefit to being in the profession

It's possible for any of us. Do we want to live in a country where federal authorities demand we produce our papers whenever they choose?

Not to mention that it's not illegal to not have a passport and getting a birth certificate takes time and money.

I don't have a passport, and in our house heaven knows where the heck a copy of my birth certificate may be.

If ICE is going to randomly raid people, at least they could go after Uber/Grubhub/Lyft/DoorDash drivers who don’t actually pay much/any tax. The farm workers contribute something.

Like gun control, this is one of the things where I feel like most of the rest of the (Western) world sort of watches on in disbelief. I hope there's a reckoning in the near future and the folks behind these decisions are taken to task, but more likely it just gets swept under the rug and and people in the future will be wondering why the hell nobody did anything about it at the time.

So this isn't about illegal immigration? Lot of illegal immigrants here from Europe and Asia. Lot of overstayed work and student visas (which have a rather bad history in our country of late).

You could raid any maid service in Chicago and find dozens of undocumented workers from Eastern Europe. That isn't going to happen and we both know why.

I really have no idea what you are talking about sometimes

I am being told that not having proof of citizenship on you is grounds to believe you are here illegally. That this is done to stop illegal immigration.

So I'm asking why I am not asked for my birth certificate when I am pulled over. If not having a passport or birth certificate on us is evidence of being illegal, why would you not haul in anyone who doesn't have it and demand they verify? Were the executives at this chicken plant also asked to produce their passport or birth certificate during the raid?

You don't see white illegal immigrants being told to go back to their country and you don't see ICE raids on Russian, Chinese, or other Asian and European populations.

There's a huge human trafficking issue in Eastern European and Asian populations, but unless it involves the Patriots owner no one gives a shit. However, human trafficking across the southern border is one of the biggest threats to our country.

The tech industry is filled with people from Asia on overstayed visas. Employers love it because they can get cheaper talent which hurts skilled workers in this country. Zero effort being made to stop it.

Also the Mississippi raid has more to do with the dipshit owner benig mad that he lost a lawsuit and wanted to send a message.

For Mexico and south is 73% (+3% for Caribbean area). Europe is 5% and Asia 16%.

Profile of the Unauthorized Population - US | migrationpolicy.org

Sure it's about unauthorized immigrants. And yes, the focus is more on the brown vs the yellow/black/white but that's what the demographics show and where the majority of the conundrum is.

If it was about unauthorized immigrants, you would ask everyone. Takes but a minute to demand a birth certificate or passport. The resources are already in place, why not use them?

And while we're at it, why not arrest the people who hired all these unauthorized workers? It is a crime. Cops will tell you that it's better to bust the dealer than all the users.

This is about stopping illegal immigrants after all, right?

I agree that I would not be able to quickly produce a birth certificate, passport, or naturalization certificate when asked because they are at home or in a safe deposit box.

I do think its reasonable for them to ask for SSN & Drivers License which (I think) will allow them to check pretty quick if someone is able to work legally. From reading the various articles, do we know if ICE asked for proof of citizenship or proof that they could work legally?

Yes, I agree if this was systemic that the owners/managers should be held accountable.

I do think its about unauthorized immigration. Based on your questioning, I assume you think its about racism?

Regarding birth certificate or passport, answered in prior post. I wouldn't h ave them readily available but do we know if ICE actually asked for those or possible SSN & Driver's License to check in the eVerify database? I don't know but the latter is more reasonable.

On arresting the managers/owners, I actually agree that they should do that. They will get bailed out pretty quick but its the principle for sure.

73-76% to 16% total unauthorized. Let's focus on where the majority of the problem is (and not just on the supply but also the demand)

Re: overstays, approx 700K out of 11M+. Approx 100K was from Canada (let's give them a break, we know most will go back), approx 130K from Mexico and south of the border, China+India was about 64K.

Analyzing the New Visa Overstay Report | Center for Immigration Studies

The one's in the tech industry to more damage to Americans because they actually drive down prices of high paying jobs. These raids are taking jobs that Americans won't work.

Reminder that the first person Trump commuted the sentence of was a man who hired hundreds of illegal immigrants to work in his factory. He really cares about unauthorized workers.

If you are stating the ones in the tech industry is doing more damage as a whole, I would be interested in reading the research/analysis.

I have not been able to find metrics on how many unauthorized work in the tech industry (I did find a link that said 13% in management & professional but not explicitly tech) and also understand how they come to the cost/benefit analysis.

Absolutely agree these raids are on jobs that Americans won't work. Its either come up with holistic immigration reform that includes expanded guest worker program and/or increase pay which will be reflected on the consumer.

I think you have been hinting at "its all about racism" but I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly.

If you don't think its about unauthorized immigration, what do you think its about?

If you say racism plays a role, I'll give you that. If you say its primarily about racism and not unauthorized immigration, that's a pretty radical position IMO.

Don't know about the others, but I have to believe Uber & Lyft have to report revenue paid to the drivers (e.g. 1099 as a independent contractor). So taxes will be paid somehow.

The President who wanted to stop illegal immigration was literally hiring unauthorized workers at his properties. He commuted a sentence of a man who hired illegal immigrants. Why would someone who truly cares about this issue do that?

If you want to stop illegal immigration, perp walk 5-10 CEOs of companies that hire unauthorized workers and hit them with charges that can land them in prison for many years. I guarantee you'll see some asses pucker and changes made in terms of hiring around the country.

But it's not about stopping illegal immigration. The money in the party needs those workers. It's why when Florida Republicans tried to implement strict rules on hiring, a bunch of big donors finally spoke up and said "yeah we can't have that". This is about locking up some brown people for show to placate limp-dicked losers who get off on it.

They can just write off all of it using a bit of fudgery and legit write offs.

Companies hire people on H1-B visas because they are cheaper and can control them. When you're on one, you can't just leave for a better offer.

500 - Internal Server Error

The more you bring in, the less you have to pay domestic workers in the field.

hxxp://fortune.com/2017/02/15/h1-b-silicon-valley-wages/


It's because we don't know. We don't have good ways of tracking overstayed student, tourist, and work visas.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/02/u...tay-visas.html

You'll see from that article that the last report we had showed 40% of people overstayed their work visas. Also this quote:


This was something Trump spoke about fixing during the campaign (which I agreed with). But he did a 180 on it when the donors told him to bend over.

If you don't believe we are through the looking glass, read this: https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/07/polit...ton/index.html


Trump and his people "defend" the Presidents from attacks that never happened. The level they can just make crap up is just unbelievable. Any proof that something did not happen is just "fake news."

So you are totally cool with violating someones civil liberties by demanding them to show ID for doing nothing wrong?


It is 100% about racism. I'm a 44 year old white guy who drives a BMW. For some reason I don't feel the need to carry around proof of citizenship. Wonder why that is?

and FOX news will cleverly edit the soundbites to make it look as bad as they can, his disciples will eat it up, and the Tucker Carlsons of the world will go on telling them all how the Dems are dividing us by picking on poor Donald when we should all just be falling in line.

And I couldn't even prove citizenship right know because my naturalization papers were lost and I am waiting for copies, only because I also need to replace my ragged SSN card. Yet I have no worries about being questioned either......Oh yeah, middle aged and white.

Everyone here would have a fit if they were detained for a weekend until they could provide proper proof of citizenship.

No no no...it's about stopping unauthorized workers. This is an issue Trump is passionate about.

Breaking --> For nearly two decades, Trump's businesses have relied on a roving crew of undocumented immigrant workers (nicknamed "Los Picapiedras") to do work on his properties.

A big @Fahrenthold & @partlowj exclusive https://t.co/ABbMgbAG5g

— Philip Rucker (@PhilipRucker) August 9, 2019

Rightfully so

Not a lawyer but my understanding is there was a warrant issued. So yeah, I'm okay for showing some sort of ID like a DL and my SSN. If they were asking for passport or naturalization papers on short notice, that's unreasonable.

Also, if there was no process to take care of children left without parents, that is pretty stupid and bad.

Definition of racism from ADL

What is Racism? | ADL

Was the judge that issued the warrant racist - probably not, more likely acting on unauthorized immigration

Were the ICE men racist - probably not, more likely acting on unauthorized immigration

Are the policies/laws that the Judge & ICE acted on racist - easily believe some level of racism played a role for some Congressmen who created/evolved/participated in the laws we have now. Was it 100%, no

Is Trump racist - yeah, I can believe that. I don't think some of his comments taken in isolation falls under the definition of racism but taking into account his whole body of work recently, sure

Too much on this board right now saying ICE asked the MS unauthorized for proof of citizenship?

There is nothing I've read that said show proof of citizenship (which is a pretty high bar and unreasonable on short notice). But I could be wrong.

Can you provide a link to this? Otherwise, let's call it fake news.

It literally took 5 minutes after the news on Epstein broke before someone in my feed called out the Clinton's, in complete seriousness.

How else would they determine who to arrest? Most IDs aren't proof of citizenship. What else could they have done other than ask and then demand proof?

I came through the H1B process so fully understand. Lots of "fake" postings in Computer World (is that rag still around?).

I was questioning your point about "more damage done" by these tech workers vs rest of unauthorized and wanted to see how you came to that conclusion.


Yes, I don't know why we can't track everyone that comes in/out with the amount of technology we have now (probably because they are still using mainframes at INS).

Sure 40% overstayed their visas, but overstays are 16% of total unauthorized. And of the 16%, the largest group of overstays are Mexico & south of the border.

I think DL and SSN is enough for E-Verify. Instead of asking for proof of citizenship, I would think they would ask for proof you are allowed to work in the US.

I have not read what the process was for the (1) initial pickup and (2) processing later. My point is no one here knows either (or please provide a link).

Its just as easy to believe ICE asked for DL and SSN vs "proof of citizenship" which implies passport or naturalization papers. On short notice, the former is pretty reasonable, the latter is not.

Arkancide...duh

Just about every foreign country requires non-citizen to carry a passport or other documents (or copy) at all times. Many countries, including some European countries, require everyone to carry ID and to show it on request. Americans are more offended by this than people in other countries. Which is fine, we can have our own rules. But let's not pretend it's some crazy concept.

My complaint is that we don't, and even now are only expecting some people to be able to produce documents on demand. Applying this to everyone has it's own problems, but at least then we wouldn't be making an initial judgement on skin color or spoken language.

dola

But we know that ICE has detained people with driver's licenses because that isn't enough to prove citizenship. It seems reasonable to assume they are following that same procedure here.

I googled on "what documents does ICE ask for" and the like. I was not able to find anything. Vast majority was "know your rights", "what not to do".

The I-9 requirements give you a list of what documents prove identity and work authorization.

Certainly, my advice to individuals would be to carry enough of these to prove status, but the law doesn't require us to do so, and holding people indefinitely because they don't have those documents on hand is a real problem.

13 states offer DLs to illegal immigrants according to http://www.ncsl.org/research/immigra...mmigrants.aspx

So having a DL doesn't mean you're here legally.

DL + SSN is enough to check E-Verify and validate you can work here legally.

True there may be forgeries but those 2 are typically enough.

I’m vacationing on Nantucket. Mike Pence just drove by us. He is here for a fund raiser. Wish I had known. I would have made a sign and stood on the side of the road.

Vice president MIke Pence on Nantucket Saturday - News - The Inquirer and Mirror - Nantucket, MA

Hah. What would the sign have said?

Probably “stop locking kids in cages”

Epstein commits suicide-he was on suicide watch since his earlier attempt, but apparently not when he actually succeded. Looks like he hung himself. What a coward. I fully expect conspiracy theories from the right and left in 3.2.1...


Jeffrey Epstein, accused sex trafficker, dies by suicide: Officials - ABC News

Yup, the tin foil hat crowd are saying the AJ Barr had him murdered so he couldn't rat out Trump.

Or that Bill and Hillary somehow ordered it.

I saw that one too

There's also the theory that the suicide is a fake and Epstein is getting a face transplant right now.

My favorite is that Trump and the Clinton's arranged it together because they both had something to lose by Epstein talking.

Good one.

Did this business use E-Verify? If they did, and the workers had documentation, why were they arrested? Did ICE have evidence of forgeries? If the workers didn't have documentation, why aren't the managers/owners going to jail for hiring without documentation?

TBH, I can easily believe he had dirt on powerful people and can easily believe he got murdered.

With that said, wouldn't the jail cell/door/hallway be on 24x7 surveillance and therefore a murder could be easily disproved?

There have been some reports, not official I think, that the cameras weren't working at the time of death. Not sure what other surveilliance there would have been, especially if he was not on suicide watch then.

Universal Pictures has decided not to release The Hunt, after conservatives threw a fit over it. To me, it looked like a cartoonishly overwrought attack on effete, liberal elites, but what do I know?

Don't know; don't know; don't know; let me know if you find any articles that answers these questions.

None of the above seem to be contesting all/most of the 680 were unauthorized? So what did ICE do illegal or what is your beef with the raid?



Found something but not specific to the raid.

Your Rights in the Border Zone | American Civil Liberties Union

The followup question is what if one says they are a citizen but ICE officer does not believe you. How are you supposed to prove it? Don't know.

However, I presume there weren't a lot of the 680 detained that said they were citizens so let's go to ...


To be absolutely fair, I didn't carry my docs with me before I became a green card holder (but did carry my green card all the time when I got it).

So base on SOP, I am guessing ICE did not ask the 680 for proof of citizenship but more like your immigration documents to show you are legal in the country.

Okay then, I'm leaning toward a conspiracy/murder :)

That's an assumption that no one there is a citizen, which I doubt is true. That sort of assumption is my problem. How does ICE determine who is questioned and who is detained? It sure seems like the plan was to round up everyone that looked Hispanic and work out the details later.

Where there is smoke there is fire. Clinton hung with this guy. I know a guy who is a big conspiracy guy and I think I have told stories about him here. But this guy believes there is a pedophile island off the coast of Cali where the rich and powerful fly for weekends. There are young boys and girls there. And he mentioned Clinton.

As for the cameras in jails, my FIL worked a as a prison guard and he would stand in front of the camera to block it when there was punishment to be done on a prisoner. So it isnt a coincident that the cameras were down during his death. Im not saying a guard did it or they let an outsider in, but dont think it isnt hard to get another inmate to do it. Especially when its a child predator.

All the people arrested allegedly passed E-Verify with the company. So I highly doubt they are using that.

If the ACLU link is correct, then ICE just asks them if (1) they are US citizens and (2) if not, ask them for their immigration documents (which everyone over 18 are suppose to have on them).

Full story is not yet out and foxnews is not known for accuracy but this is what we have so far.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/chicken-p...=prn_newsstand

So if the argument is the Chinese guy (I thought it was Koch Industries) should be penalized also (don't know what the penalties are), I think all pro-immigration control, anti-unauthorized immigration folks on this board are all for it.

Of course they knew what they were doing. I'm just going by their official statement. No one is going to get arrested because those factories are owned by a big GOP donor.

E-Verify is not a national ID service. lungs has talked about it here a few times. It's not terribly accurate and can be easily abused. Decent amount of mistakes too.

His history with trump is far more than with the Clintons.

True and Im sure there is something there. But we were talking Clinton conspiracy theories.

Funny thing, is that the way that trump loves autocratic do it all dictators and gangster crime bosses, he's so much more likely to pull something like that off.

Is that really an argument? It's like asking which serial killer had the higher body count.

He has been out of office for almost 20 years. At what point does he lose his magical powers to assassinate anyone he wants without the government finding out?

There's hundreds of people that probably wanted him dead. Far more powerful than Trump and Clinton. In fact, from what I've read, both Trump and Clinton kept their distance after awhile from the guy.

The most likely answer is a pedophile who realized he was spending the rest of his life in jail just decided to kill himself. Or a fellow prisoner decided he didn't like being near a chomo.

There are real points to be had here, mixed in with a lot of unsubstantiated fluff that reads like a Fox Five talking point memo. Until there is hard proof of the other, it's mostly just wasted.

At what point does Obama stop being a Kenyan Muslim?

No. Everyone who is a legal non-citizen. Again, the assumption that they are all non-citizens comes from where?

And in less than a day, the executive dipshit retweets a Clintons tied to Epstein's death conspiracy theory.

https://wapo.st/2z2PMah

What a fucking tool.

Correct. Companies can take fake identification and legally be in the clear. Just as long as they don't assist people in acquiring the fake docs. When I hired people from Mexico or Nicaragua, I'd simply tell them I need a social security card (a piece of cardboard, basically), and a Permanent Resident Card in order to be able to work. I would help them fill out the I-9, W-4 and state W-4, submit those to my accountant along with a copy of the ID cards. Good to go. ICE could've hauled my entire crew away and I'd just hand over the paperwork and throw my hands up claiming that they gave me all the proper paperwork. The only way employers can get in trouble is if they are under the table.

The Permanent Resident Card takes a little more effort to forge but it's big business and most metropolitan areas will have plenty of people that do it. My due diligence with those cards was looking at the back and seeing if there was a hologram of the person's portrait. It was always there.

E-verify is not mandated and is a shitty system anyway. The guy arrested for beating animals at the huge farm in Indiana was not eligible to work here yet passed the E-verify system. The reason it's not mandated is because it doesn't work.

I don't understand the "everyone who is a legal non-citizen" but to answer your question --

1) An Informant told authorities there were a bunch of unauthorized working in the MS plans (see foxnews link above)
2) ICE thought it was valid enough where they got a warrant. Don't know what the warrant said but probably something to the effect there are a bunch of unauthorized in these MS plants, go investigate/arrest/detain them
3) ICE went and asked the 680 for their "immigration documents"
4) The 680 were not able to produce them for one reason or another and so ICE arrested/detained them

I think you want me to say there is racism involved? If so, see my post #18416

Yeah, don't know if arrest is in the cards for the owners but I would think certainly fines. The punishment comparison between the 680 vs the owners do show the inequity of the situation. As part of any immigration reform, it needs to be addressed in the supply and demand side for sure.

In the context of MS raids, E-Verify is mandated in MS. Some articles I read put it at 50% area of effectiveness and the issue are:

1) Forgeries and managers/owners doing the wink-wink
2) Lack of some periodic audit by ICE/INS
3) Lack of political will to truly make it national and mandated everywhere

So sure, not perfect. Better than nothing. Needs improvement. I'm good with all of that.

It isn't illegal for citizens to not carry ID, the requirement is only for legal residents who are not citizens. So how did ICE determine these 680 people weren't citizens and needed to be detained?

If you mean "before the raid", they didn't. They just had a warrant saying there is likely a bunch of unauthorized, go investigate/arrest/detain.

If you mean "during the raid", I imagine the exchange went this way:

ICE: Are you a US citizen
680: No
ICE: Show me your immigration papers
680: Don't have them on me
ICE: Stand in that line there

or

ICE: Are you a US citizen
680: No
ICE: Show me your immigration papers
680: According to this website, I have the legal right to not say anything
ICE: Stand in that line there

or

ICE: Are you a US citizen
680: No
ICE: Show me your immigration papers
680: Here you go
ICE: (Doesn't look fake) Okay, you are free to go

or

ICE: Are you a US citizen
680: Yes
ICE: (asks more probing questions, uses judgement or check some database)

You said to look at this post for why it's not racist. ICE has a pretty big history of racism in this country.

Inside the Secret Border Patrol Facebook Group Where Agents Joke About Migrant Deaths and Post Sexist Memes — ProPublica

Under Trump, they hired an analyst from the Center for Immigration Studies. The former acting director hired many people from CIS and even spoke at their events.

They are also run by a white supremacist and rank and file heavily voted in favor of a white supremacist.

Tax cuts would pay for themselves.

The US budget deficit is up 27% and getting closer to $1 trillion https://t.co/6j5ZYiDqlB

— CNBC (@CNBC) August 12, 2019

Yeah I wish there was at least one politician out there who actually cared about the deficit. Trump obviously doesn't and the Democratic candidates seem to be in a competition to come up with the biggest spending plan.

I wonder what it would take for this to become an "issue" at this point? If you split up the current political scene into quadrants, there's only one (R but out of power) who has a shot to give a F about deficit spending, and fiscal responsibility in general. The D side is basically a lost cause, and when the R has power he sees the benefits of spending so "deficits don't matter."

Oddly enough, Ross Perot was the only flicker of a hope in semi-modern politics we have had to give a shit about deficits and debt. It's fascinating that the year-to-year deficit actually disappeared during the dot com bubble (I'm not going to be stupid and claim that was because of who was in office at the time) but that might have been the moment to step in with something to keep the huge deficit spending cycle to return in the way that it clearly has since then.

Deficits shrink under Democratic Presidents.