I think this is pretty spot on. The show hasn't done that great of a job fleshing out characters. It struggles with a larger cast and the better episodes tend to be those that focus on a smaller subset of characters.

While I don't think the comparison is all that fair, if you look at the roster of characters in just the first season of "Lost", for example: Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Jin, Sun, Hurley, Charlie, Locke, Michael/Walt, Sayid, Claire and Boone/Shannon. A pretty large ensamble cast that, more or less, all turned out to be pretty memorable, fleshed out characters.

By the third season, you could add a number of other very memorable characters.

In a little over two seasons we got very little of T-Dogg. In almost three full seasons, Carol has had some development of late, but not nearly enough for a character who has been around as long as she has. In a season and a half, Beth (Maggie's sister) is really just Maggie's sister who occassionally ends an episode by singing (though she did end the fight last episode by shooting a gun, if she starts to develop more of a personality, she is going to end up like T-Dogg, Oscar and Axel.)

Characters who I feel are pretty well definied: Rick, Carl, Hershel, Glenn, Maggie, Michonne (getting there), Andrea (defined by her suckage), Darryl, Merle and the Govenor.

I would say, of those lost, Dale, Shane and Lori were pretty well defined.

So, yeah, the show has struggled with the larger cast and making more of the side characters memorable. "Lost" tended to do it by making character-focused episodes and then larger, ensamble episodes as well.

I am rambling.

JIMGA and HB - that is exactly why I started a TWD Survivor Pool...hopefully they DO axe off a bunch of them :)

Although not Darryl...my wife would probably cry for days if that happened, lol.

And not Carol...because I have her :)

Why they didn't do episode centric flashbacks focusing on other characters is beyond me....that is how LOST got you into all the characters. I know the show is supposed to focus on Rick and how he adjusts to this life but why couldn't we see T-Dog doing whatever it was he did before the world went to hell? I've read bits of the comic and it is great for THAT medium but I think with the direction this show is going, they are going to have to do something to develop the "minor" characters more than they have. Otherwise, you got Rick, Carl, Andrea, Daryl and a bunch of Star Trek red shirts waiting to get bitten, shot, or something else.

Hey Jon, how have the ratings been looking with season 3.5?

It's a fucking monster. Re-premiere episode was the most watched (12.3m) scripted show in cable history. 2nd ep of the half season dipped a bit but every ep since has been in the low-to-mid 11 million viewer range).

A18-49 ratings have been very stable, The Bible has cut into the all ages audience a little bit but it dipped sharply (25%) with 18-49 after the premiere

I'm glad to show is still highly rated and hope it stays that way.

For all of its flaws from time to time, I do enjoy it greatly.

FWIW, the Bible is amazing and im not religious.

i hope the bible gets put on netflix soon...hate i have missed it but subday night tv has me spread out pretty thin.

I saw it. It was slightly less preachy than The Newsroom.

I'm just going to point out the obvious here.


Lost had 25 episodes the first season. Walking Dead is only on it's 32 episode.

a 25 episode season is a massive disadvantage for a show. The amount of filler time required is immense, and it seriously drags down the quality of any show. I get the point you're trying to make, but its the opposite of how it actually works in virtually every instance.

The Walking dead does action great. They are hit and miss on overall character development in general, and they are frequently a trainwreck when it comes to strict dialogue scenes, the more emotional they try to be, the worse they are, most of the time. There has been more than enough time to turn all those underdeveloped characters that HB mentioned into deep characters, but they either aren't interested, or aren't capable of doing that. The main one to me was T-Dog. The treatment of that character by the writers is a freaking disgrace.

But, as HB also said:


I think most of us here would say exactly that. I enjoy the hell out of this show, but there are countless times where I find myself frustrated because it could be so much more if it did a couple things better. Its still pretty awesome though.

this is exactly how I feel.
(it's also how I felt about LOST, fwiw)

I kind of liked Andrea in this episode. She is the only one willing to stand up to both Rick and The Governor. She is calling them out on their idiotic feud and trying to get them all to do the right thing and focus on the walkers. The fact that she is kicked out of her own meeting so "the men-folk can talk" show how little common sense is worth and how crazy the leaders are.

Another good part of the episode was showing the cracks in the relationships of followers to their leaders and letting the two sides meet, gain an understanding, and widen the cracks. The shift in relationship between Daryl and Bat-boy may have been a bit too abrupt, but it shows how meaningless the petty squabbling is. Same with Herschel and Book-boy. I'm not sure that Rick will have to take out The Governor. I think his own people might take care of it.

I do have one question, though. Why doesn't the prison gang send out a daily patrol along the fence to kill the walkers on the other side of the fence. They have plenty of weapons they can stick through the fence to make it a zero risk activity. If they are ever going to reclaim the planet, they have to eventually take out all the walkers. Why leave a major threat contained when they can eliminate it, or at least reduce it? Seems like a no-cost/moderate-gain concept.

I guess I'd just rather hear discussion about the show we love, instead of bitching and complaining about it's flaws. Yes there are flaws, but they aren't flaws enough for us to hate what is going on.

I agree with you DG. The problem is, the show doesn't seem like ti is offering up enough for discussion.

I'm enjoying where it is right now. I think they slowed things down lately and they did keep it interesting enough. They're giving you the insight into the situation and people before it all blows up in the next few episodes.

It'd be better with more people selling underpants. Just sayin'

An entire episode without the main cast ... and it didn't totally suck. And it even had a fair amount of Andrea & didn't totally suck.

I'm not sure I would have thought that possible.

I decided to fast forward through each one of the governor's speeches. Makes this go down easier.

At least they gagged Andrea so she can't talk.

Yay for (a little) more Tyreese!

Yeah I agree. My only complaint is that there is no way Andrea would have ended up in that truck when the governor got to her, she knew exactly what would have happened, and there would have been a fight to the death.

If he was going to drug her or something to get her back, freaking show that on the screen. Don't do it the way they did, its a bit dishonest.

I'm hoping that Milton survives til next season.

I really liked the scene with Rick. Wondering if he was hallucinating or not.

Some good startle moments. I thought it would have been awesome if they would have killed off the governor in this episode. Would have been a major shock and really twisted up the source material plot for good.

I actually predicted him dying next week, not even making it to the finale.

More or less dishonest than Governor working his way out of a warehouse full of zombies coming from multiple directions with no ammo? And then being in shape to track down Andrea and silently take her down seconds from Rick spotting her?

I get that they wanted to have a certain ending, but the way just about the entire Governor hunting Andrea scene played out was a bit dishonest. Advanced plot? Sure. Suspenseful? Yeah, for the most part. But it plays to the same idea you raise ... show the stuff on camera.

Also, Andrea knows the drill in terms of the prison swarming with zombies outside ... she wouldn't approach on foot. Commandeer a car along the ride, or at the very least make your own zombie minus arms to walk in the front door like you did last time.

He's showing a personality...that means he's going to die soon.

Hah, good point :) I'm basically willing to buy anything with walkers at this point, but maybe I shouldn't be.

Ha - here's hoping that isn't the case. Would be a major waste, if you ask me.

I think they are setting up the finale with a decent number of possible ways for it to go. We've got the good old fashioned shootout. We've got Milton getting over his internal struggle and taking out the Governor. We've got Andrea breaking free of her bondage and taking out the Governor. Tyreese set up to foil the Governor and earning his place with Rick. I'm hoping Milton has a big role in the finale, but like Jon said, he very well may not make it there.

I think there is one thing which will come from Milton, with two possible consequences: At some point in the next two episodes, probably the finale, he will finally get over his indecision and fear and he will DO something critical. And the possible results are simple, he'll either live or die doing it (and if he lives, he will join Rick's group).

That's my best guess.

I think Milton will end up rescuing Andrea. He's really the only one who knows about the Governors's secret torture palace. I imagine he'll figure it out at some point.

I was wondering if at the end when Milton mentioned what happened with the fire, whether he was just sort of coming out and telling the Governor that he did that as a bit of a rebellion, or he just screwed up.

A lot of the episde felt a bit too... slasher-flick for me.

I had no problem with the Governor getting out of the warehouse. There was the big group in front of him and it looked like one behind him. He had a gun and presumably plenty of ammo and that shovel. He's an evil badass too.

As for Andrea's tactics. She made a call to bolt. Something she should have done a while back. All she had was her knife. She figured that they would go out to look for her. So, given she has very little time, is alone and only has a pocket knife, how is she supposed to make her own zombie minus arms to walk in the front door? Last time, she had help with that and the proper equipment. Also, there aren't that many cars that work just sitting around waiting to be drive. I think she did the bast she could with what she had at the time.

My bigger problem was the slasher-flick feel to it all, including the governor showing up at the end to haul her down. A bit much.

That last shot of her in the chair was pretty haunting.

Slasher-flick is a good description. The hidden fire-starter, the last minute capture of Andrea, too many instances of forced mystery.

Do we know if Tyreese knows about the fire? He seemed to buy the Governor's explanation about a bluff which is more powerful to the viewer if Tyreese set the fire. If he didn't set the fire but does know about it, he shouldn't buy the bluff lie. The fire must have been set by someone that does know the tactics.

I don't think Tyreese set the fire. It doesn't really seem his style and both him and Sasha seemed genuinely confused by the question about the gasoline.

I think it was Milton who did it.

I totally agree. For most of that scene, the writers wanted us to think it was Tyreese, and then be frustrated when he apologized since the bought the "bluff" line. What I don't remember is if Tyreese knew about the fire. Him buying the "bluff" line makes sense if he doesn't know about the fire...not if he does.

Tyrese and Milton are good characters who they should keep. Best case scenario is Governor kills Andrea, Rick kills governor and the jail becomes unlivable so they leave. Tyrese and Milton help Rick after they learn what happened to Andrea.

I have a hard time seeing Milton survive the season. I wouldn't mind if he does, but I just don't see it happening. Tyrese on the other hand I think is highly likely to survive. Hopefully he ends up with Rick's group next season. Its possible that my prediction about Tyrese is skewed because I would be really pissed off if they used him so little this year and killed him off, b/c I like the actor playing him so much and want him to have a long term role here.

My guess: Milton goes to rescue Andrea, only to discover that she was simply being used (for the time being) as bait for the trap to fully convict him as a turncoat. He dies shortly thereafter, probably shot through the eye or something.

I would like to see Milton live and eventually be the one to reveal how this all got started/find a cure or something along those lines.

I'm getting pretty close to bailing.

I really want to like this show, as there are good moments, but yesterday had way to many "WTF, thats just ridiculous" scenes for me.

I realize I'm in the minority, and you have to suspend belief during most shows, but it just seemed like lazy writing.

A few examples:

The zombie is now strong enough to hold Andrea with one arm behind a tree, but a minute later, Andrea i guess ate some spinach, and bent the arm the other way......

The Governer, sneaks up on Andrea, and takes her down....fine, but he covers her mouth, and she's now POWERLESS?! There's no fight left in her when she's so close?! Goes against everything her character is supposed to be. Oh, and every zombie in the area is suddenly ignoring them, like they already ate lunch.

This could be part of the reason the show runner was let go.

As for Andrea being powerless, my take was, she was exhausted by the time she reached the prison. However, when the Governor made it back to Woodbury, he seemed to be holding the side of his stomach. Made me think that maybe Andrea tried to stab him with her knife.

Or, as I was thinking as the episode wound down ...

I think he's probably toast.

possible spoiler

From what I heard, people were displeased with something in the 2nd half of this season. Considering they've turned out at least 4 stinkers in 6 weeks, it's not surprising.

That's your opinion on the stinkers. I personally am of the opinion only two of the second half episodes have been stinkers, and even last week's stinker, IMO, had some redeeming moments.

That was my thought too...

I did have that thought too. It would be an appropriate send off for him in my opinion.

Does Glenn work as a double agent/the masked person who let the walkers in? He has the body size of a girl. Maybe they broke him/he made a (bad)deal with the Gov for passage to Woodbury. He wanted to take Michonne to get the governor. How did the Gov hear about the weapons.

great examples, but the most grievous was the Governor finding her in the middle of nowhere. Twice.

All she had to do was keep running in the woods instead of into the barn and she would havemade it!

Sigh :(

Brutal. Simply brutal. And y'know what? Even if it had to happen, it's a lesser show right now than it was before this episode.

I had seen a spoiler photo of it about 2 weeks ago and was hoping that it wasn't fake.

Anyways, less governor and andrea=good episode.

On a practical note, if they kill Darryl next week -- which is what I've predicted as at least a cliffhanger for several week -- ratings will be down by at least 40 percent by the 3rd ep of next season.

TV audiences are fickle things. And without Darryl, I really believe they'll lose roughly half their female audience.

Not sure what to think about this one.

Not much of a set up for next week, so hopefully it doesn't feel too rushed. If there are going to be casualties next week, there aren't many expendables left on Rick's side (unless they want to go big). Beth and Carol are probably in danger. Herschel (unfortunately), too. I can't see Rick, Carl, Glen, Daryl, or Maggie going out just yet.

Killing off Darryl might have been what got Mazzera fired if that actually happened.

Merle had to go, he was too big a problem at this point. They couldn't have him just become one of the good guys again, but being the bad guy, staying there after what happened with Glenn and Maggie, it wouldn't fly. This was the best case for Merle, do one good thing on his way out.

The problem I have here is that I just can't bring myself to believe for a second that Rick would think that the Governor's offer to exchange Michonne for peace was legit. If I can ignore that, pretty solid episode on its own, but I do agree with Swaggs, nothing really happened here to help set up next week (except for the possibility of Darryl being the one that kills the Governor I guess).

I massively disagree that nothing of import happened in this episode or that it didn't really set up anything for next week. Merle just declared war on Woodbury for the prison. He just gave the Governor all the excuse he needs to go take an army and assault the prison. I don't think for a second the Governor believes Merle acted on Rick's behalf, but he will look for any excuse. This gives him the "moral high ground" he may have needed with his own people, including maybe Milton and Tyrese.

Remember Merle attacked the Governor and his people at the meeting site for negotiations. He came to "negotiate" with Rick, and instead he got attacked by a "member" of Rick's crew.

We'd already seen a scene after the first negotiation where the Governor makes it clear that he's not negotiating. He asked for Michonne to be brought in alive, but for everyone else in Rick's party to be killed when they showed up to negotiate. Having Merle go it alone is just the method the show chose to avoid Rick and his folks walking into an ambush and to change the location of what is presumably the final confrontation between these two groups, IMO.

I'm sure the Governor will use this to rally his people, but it really wasn't needed. He already had the fact that Rick's group came into his town to rally folks around.

I don't think that he would possess that type of power within the show to make that kind of decision. Someone in AMC higher up would surely throw his body in front of that I'd think.

Does anyone remember what the relationship between Merle and Daryl was? I can't remember and I wish they would have told us more than once or twice.

They were brothers. They made reference to it in this episode at least a couple times, although I would say it was a pretty much known relationship in the show. Have you watched the show from the start?

They could have and should have kept Merle. They had plenty of other worthless and shitty characters to kill off. I'm guessing the finale will be another filler episode to drag this war with the governor into another season.

Pretty sure that was sarcasm, Chief. ;)




Kind of a Lost "They took my boy!" thing.

No way! Merle's character arc was over. I had serious doubts starting at least 2 episodes ago that he would make it out of this season. It's not that his character wasn't fun, but his death was needed to expand Darryls. He was a man without a home. Totally untrustworthy, a complete anarchist (from a morality standpoint) who couldn't figure out how to fit in in the new order of things. He redeems himself not for his brother or the prison group, but for himself because he knows no other way out. Now Darryl has finally escaped his brothers horrible shadow and he feels like he can make his own way in the world.

dola

Besides, if pro wrestling has taught me anything it's knowing that Merle is a badass, and he get's killed by the Governor. It puts the Governor over more before the final showdown. And that's where this whole thing is going next right?

Very solid episode.

I really enjoyed it.

Sucks to see Merle go, but he went out trying to do the "right thing" in his own way.

I liked the episode (the end was expected, but still great for me), but I still don't see how they resolve the Woodbury/governor and/or prison arcs in an hour next week.

They still have the torture chair stuff, Milton's betrayal, and the stuff with Tyreese's group over at Woodbury. Maybe it goes into next season?

I'm thinking they might decide to leave the prison and there is no "final confrontation".

I'm not certain Merle was really a zombie. Michael Rucker just seems like a crazy SOB who would take bites out of extras during breaks in filming.

bath salts

You forget that Merle actually thinned out some of Woodbury's soldiers.
Plus he gave them a taste of their own medicine with the "walker" bomb/truck that they drove into the prison.

Well, all that is pretty significant, isn't it?

I feel they blew what could have been an awesome scene between Darryl and Zombie Merle. They did such a great job with Sofia when she walked out of the barn all those episodes ago back on the farm. Darryl killing Merle just felt hollow and almost cheesy. They have been disappointing me lately :(

dola, and the last episode with the Gov finding Andrea out in the middle of nowhere twice... count me as one that sighed out loud. There are many ways they could have made that work without him stumbling upon her and pulling me out of the story with a "WTF?" moment twice.

They are going to need to reboot this series before it is over!!

I hated to see Merle go, but, it seems like the writers didn't know what to do with him, so they had to kill him. He just didn't fit anywhere with the way they wrote him. I would have been happy if he had just 'disappeared' and popped up for an episode or two every now and then or made a spin off series featuring Merle, "The Adventures of Merle" or something like that.

Is the prison 1 mile, 10 miles or 100miles from woodbury?

Dola-

The gov and crew taking out a team of trained guardsmen makes me wonder why they need 50 soldiers for Ricks group. They should take the prison in 10 seconds.

They took them completely by surprise. It was an ambush. The guardsmen were tired, wary and hopeful that they were being rescued. They also didn't have fortified prison to help defend them.

This has been covered.

I'd say closer to 10 miles or so as the crow flies.

It can't be more than 4 or 5 miles. As least to me.


So they had surprise, but in the guise of the show, the people of Woodbury are just regular people who have had it cushy for most of the time, while the prison group is supposedly a group of hardened travelers that is already conditioned to fight for their lives.

Sad that Merle's gone, but glad he did the right thing in the end. Best episode of the season IMO.

Yes, sadly there have been too many of these moments through this season. The idea that she couldn't have avoided him on foot is ridiculous.

Yes.

Yo dude, we're watching a show about a zombie outbreak, need to suspend belief for about 45 mins an episode. :D

But yeah I was saying the same thing that episode... still, he knew where she was going, he knows the way to get there... we can assume she had to loosely follow the road.

My personal prediction is that either Glenn and/or Maggie die. To me, Glenn is annoying and both of them have had their screen times cut. Would not surprise me that the week after they get engaged, one of them bites it.

Also:

Read at your own risk!!

yeah, I think it's probably curtains for Glenn. and Maggie's sister(?) whatshername.

Hopefully she goes out singing.

That would suck if Glenn died. He's sweet.

I think her name is Beth, though for some reason a friend of mine calls her Doodlebug, so that's how I usually refer to her.

Here's my take on the death situation for next episode:

Prime candidates: Hershel, Doodlebug, Carol, Andrea, Sasha (Tyreses’ daughter)

Secondary candidates: Maggie, Darryl, Michonne, Glenn, Tyrese

Not likely: Rick and Carl

and Andrea kills the Governor after stepping in front of a bullet meant for Michonne? 3-1 odds on that? 5-1?

It will be interesting to see how the Governor dies. Lots of people in the mix:

Andrea, because he'll have it coming after the torturing and to make up for her not doing it earlier.

Darryl, for his brother!

Michonne, because they have a long running fued.

Glenn, for Maggie!

Rick, because he's the leader of the good guys.

Milton too, I suppose.

or maybe Walt's dog?

Good list, here is my take:

Prime: Hershel, Maggie, Glenn, Andrea, Doodlebug, Sasha
Secondary: Carol, Michonne
Unlikely: Tyrese, Darryl
Not going to happen: Rick, Carl

I just don't think they would kill Tyrese yet. Hadn't thought about Sasha, but that is probably a good choice. It's been my thought for a while that Tyrese will end up back with the prison group, replacing whoever is killed (Glenn?).

I don't see how Andrea gets out of the episode alive. I doesn't appear that very many people trust her on either side.

Hershel is a candidate just because they can't let him limp around forever. He is the current Dale, so it is just a matter of time.

I would find it very unlikely that the show would shoot itself with the female viewers by killing Darryl.

I like this list. I think Carol is a little more likely to go than Michonne. Also, I think only one of Maggie and Glenn are dying, the other stays around to mourn/suffer for a bit. I was initially going to suggest that if Maggie dies, Herschel will stay for the same reason, but I'm having second thoughts about that. Maybe its their whole family at once, all three of them.

I also remain convinced that Andrea survives, but the only reason is that she is the only character that I actively want to be gone at this point, so I fully expect her to almost die but to hang around to be even more annoying more frequently next season.



I keep seeing this mentioned. Darryl is my favorite character and my interest in the show might drop quickly if he wasn't on it. I AM NOT A WOMAN DAMMIT! ;)

I have a pet theory that Glenn will be moving on, and that Maggie is now preggers with his kid.

Prolly Lil' Ass-Kicker.