What he said. I don't believe in the thought process that says that teams foul the same amount therefore the foul shots would be the same. What good is "home cooking" when you can't close out the advantage you give. I'd just as well suspend Kobe for the next game, I doubt it would matter other then giving the Lakers an extra 3 million in playoff revenue

I certainly don't think that the refs are in it for the Lakers to win. I just think they're horrible at what they do.

There were lots of no calls on Kobe's shots this entire series, lots of phantom fouls on both the Lakers and the Magic.

Oh, and how about this beauty of a "block" from Dwight, on the same game that Gasol was being questioned for goaltending Lee's final shot attempt

Should have been an offensive foul on Kobe. The shot a minute or so before where Kobe air balled was a foul. Some bad calls on both sides, but of course all the focus is on the Laker's one at the end. Magic had more than their chances to win and blew it, bottom line. Also, you people who think the NBA prefer a Lakers win over a long series are foolish, longer the series the more money they make.

I don't know why you guys act surprised. Superstars don't play by the same rules as everyone else in the league. Lebron and Kobe could take a baseball bat on the court and start swinging and they'd call the other guy for not having his feet set. Welcome to the NBA!

Somehow Bynum probably was whistled for the foul :)

NBA doesn't give a crap how long the Finals go. They get paid a flat rate for their TV package and the contract has many years left on it. It's a superstar league and they care about protecting their superstars at all costs. That is how they sell the league.

I don't think the series is fixed or anything. I just think the refs are incompetent and bias.

Summary of the last couple pages:

"Magic blew the game, but that should have been an offensive foul on Kobe!"
"OMG, the Magic missed free throws. It's their own fault."
"Van Gundy choked, but how do you not call that on Kobe?"
"OMG, the Magic blew the lead. It's their own fault!"
"I agree that the Magic blew it, but I hate that Kobe gets away with elbows like that."
"OMG Dwight committed goaltending two games ago. Face it, the Magic blew it!"

Yup, the Magic blew it.

The Lakers didn't take a single free throw in the 4th quarter, and in OT, until the FT by gasol on the very last play of the game.

But the point I was making is that's not a response to complaints about the call, since everyone complaining about the call agrees that the Magic blew it.

If you're looking for people who think the Magic didn't blow it, then you'll have to find another thread, but "The Magic blew it" is a pretty stupid argument since no one is saying otherwise.

But the Magic blew it.

Thanks for that. Maybe you could give us a list of things you don't watch. I'll start on mine:

Pixar movies- sorry they're for kids

Soap Operas- Do I really need to explain?

Courtroom drama shows- Same shit, different crimes

NASCAR- Not a fan of driving around in circles for three hours.

Well said, Troy.

Yep and this is why I'm getting closer every year to taking Tarcone's stance and not watching anymore NBA games.

Each year I watch a bit of the playoffs and a bit of the Finals. And each year I wonder if it's just me who thinks the officiating is effectively random. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

There's reports that after the series SVG will be getting a contract extension for getting them to the finals - that extension better come with a bench coach who understands how to handle end game situations. Equal blame for Howard for missing FTs, Hedo for missed FTs and a terrible shot at the end of OT and Pietrus for a terrible shot at the end of regulation.

The officiating always leaves something to be desired but I don't think the Lakers had a FT in the 4th Q while the Magic had a ton. And I went and watched the replay of the Kobe elbow - its not quite as cut and dry to me at least. Jameer Nelson is still moving towards Kobe - it almost looks like he walked right into it. It's not like the double team was established and then Kobe brought the ball up from his hip with his elbows flying. There was no doubt Nelson had been clipped when it happened but I can understand how the officials in a split second could not decide whether Kobe actually threw an elbow or was he in the process of making an attempt to avoid the double team that was coming and Nelson just walked into it. Of course the fact that it was Kobe made the no call a little easier to make but I'm still not convinced it was the wrong call (and I've been a semi-fan of the Magic since they drafted Shaq fwiw)

I'm with Flere and it's what makes it tough to invest yourself in rooting for a team in the NBA. There's such a small margin for error that poor officiating can really tip the balance. I have no dog in the playoffs, but I can see how agitating it is for each set of fans with the terrible/blown calls.

To me, actually getting a playoff run for your team and then having idiotic rules cost you players for a key game (Suns, Knicks) or have you face "star-shocked" referees if you are playing a Lebron/Kobe/Jordan makes it almost naive for a fan to go into these playoffs fully invested in their team. I think having a passing interest in the NBA (watch a few playoff games and maybe a handful of regular season games) is about all I can muster. There's just no reason for more when you can really get into sports like the NFL, MLB, college and even the NHL and have a much more rewarding/satisfying season.

Also I wanted to comment on Howard - he needs to check himself a bit. He complains about not getting the ball in the post or gets so angry about it he starts committing dumb offensive fouls...is he the only one who understands that unless he's got an opportunity to overpower one defender and dunk that he's a complete liability with the ball there? He's a horrible free throw shooter (as evidenced again last night), he's got no post moves and he turns the ball over all the time. How hard is it to understand that you're going to be double and triple teamed so rather than put the ball down on the floor where its going to be stripped just wait for the double and kick it out. And it's completely unexcusable for any NBA player to shoot 50 and 60% from the free throw line. You've got millions of dollars and your "job" is to play basketball - get in the gym and learn how to shoot some free throws rather than wasting time shooting commercials.

Tell us how you really feel about free throw shooting Gary :)

OMG, are people really saying that should have been a foul on Kobe, and the Magic lost the game because of it? I thought it was a clear flop by Nelson. Almost like he spent a few years in Europe. And this is coming from a guy who has a soft spot for Nelson and HATES Bryant.

I am not the biggest JVG fan, but his analysis of Nelson's poor defense on Fisher at the end of regulation was brilliant - "He's doing you a favor if he drives past you. Why would you try to stop it?"

Pietrus should be suspended for that last play. If that's not a Flagrant II (seems more official with Roman numerals) why have them in the rulebook.

Like I posted earlier,

Jameer RAN into that elbow. There was no clear intent at all. Kobe posted up, lifted the ball to protect it, and Jameer just ran into it.

No foul.

It was absolutely a foul on Kobe. And the Magic have absolutely nobody to blame but themselves.

Glad I've only watched about 8 quarters of NBA basketball this season.

It didn't look like there was any malicious intent in the Kobe elbow, and I'm not even positive he saw the guy coming. Even so, you get someone in the face with an elbow, that should be a foul. Intent should only matter in determining the severity of the foul.

The famous Jordan pushoff against Utah always irritated me too.

There seems to be a lot of anger and negativity towards the NBA in this thread.

You guys should stop watching NBA basketball (like a few wise folks have already suggested) and start watching hockey! It's fast, physical and you'll be able to follow the puck on your great big HD TVs. There are some issues with officiating from time to time, but nothing as constant as this.

Climb aboard the NHL Train, fellas! We've got plenty of room.

I'll watch the game seven tonight. But if they're on at the same time the NBA with its problems is still more entertaining than hockey.

Hockey suxxors.

I hadn't been following hockey a ton, but these playoffs have been outstanding. The last game in Pittsburgh was great and I will be glued to the TV tonight.

It's just nice to watch a sporting event playoff where your first thoughts aren't "well, I hope the refs don't f*ck things up tonight".

except for the Bruins laying a mega-turd!

He didn't push off!

Where can we find the games?

I watch a lot of Warriors games. A lot. I'm a huge fan. I never have these "OH MY GOD THE REFS SCREWED US" feelings that a lot of people seem to have. Maybe I'm naive. Maybe I just don't care enough. However, I've never been sitting there after a Warriors loss thinking "This one falls squarely on the refs' shoulders"

I don't know, wait until Holmstrom or Franzen "accidentally" bowl over the goaltender like they usually do, and nary a call from the refs. ;)

Seriously, though, the officials in the NHL are much, much better than the ones in the NBA. And I only consider the NHL guys to be functionally competent at best.

I know what you mean. It's something those of us that don't follow good franchises are familiar with. It's called "not nearly close enough to matter." ;)

And that's probably being kind on a lot of nights.

I haven't watched hockey in at least 5 years, but tonight's game has me hooked in unless it becomes a blowout.

Yeah, but like has been said functionally competent is still light years better than the NBA

SI

NBC, right now

SI

I think a key point people have tried to make in this thread is that the refs did not screw the Magic, but rather that the refs are completely incompetent at what they do. I did not watch much of the game, but the stretch I did watch at the end of the first half seemed to have the refs calling the game VERY tight, but fair, calling it tight on both teams. Which is what makes the no-calls at the end so perplexing.

The real beef are the OBVIOUS fouls that they choose to swallow their whistles on even when staring right at the play. And the whole NBA tradition of stars "getting the calls" is absurd. I was in Orlando and Tampa (college in Tampa, co-op in Orlando) when the Magic came to be, and I remember when they landed Shaq how he couldn't do anything his first 2 years because he wasn't getting the calls. It wasn't until he was established that they let him throw his weight around and he became a dominant player, all because they started calling him differently.

And I'll always come back to Shaq as exposing the fundamental problem with the NBA: when a guy can become a superstar by shoving people backward until he can dunk the ball, you have a problem.

Same gripe is with the NHL: you just have no clue how the refs will call a game, and no clue how they'll call it period to period. It just seems like officials in both sports blow whistles pretty close to at random. And it sucks trying to watch a game and ruins the experience.

That's where all the bitching is coming from.

I think NBA refs have a huge factor on the game, but I still think other sports can claim the same thing. Take football for instance. With the parity we have and how important momentum can be, a bad pass interference call or holding call that kills a big drive can change entire games. Just last year I can remember seeing football games being decided on marginal roughing the passer calls that kept drives alive that shouldn't have been.

Very nice stretch of plays by Howard. He should have gotten a foul on the last possession as well.

So, I don't usually care or even pay attention to something like this but are they trying to out-ugly each other on the halftime set? Stu Scott has horrible "stylish" glasses while Magic's suit could provide enough light for the state of Rhode Island

SI

Bring it on home Kobe.

I'm not great with predictions but this was dead on

SI

Five long years.

What a great season for Kobe and the Lakers.

Ehhh...Joey Buss that was painful

That will go down as one of the worst NBA Finals in history.

I think the win helps Kobe's legacy a bit, but not too much. The Lakers had an easy playoffs and avoided most of the teams and players that would have given them trouble. While the overall playoffs was exciting, it has to be one of the worst talent-wise that we've seen in a long time.

Easy playoffs? Maybe an easy Finals. Not sure you could say the rest of the playoffs was all that easy for them, though. Sure, there was no Lakers-Kings sorta series in there, but certainly Houston and Denver were not easy series.

Heck, even the Finals was very competitive at times, with the OT games.

Houston didn't have McGrady or Yao (for the last few games at least).

Denver was a good team, but not a Conference Finals caliber team in my mind. The West was weak this year and had more parity.

Orlando in the Finals was a joke. They are a good team, but they are nowhere near the caliber of a Finals team. The Lakers avoided a matchup with Cleveland that would have been much tougher for them to handle.

Also the loss of KG looms over these playoffs. A healthy KG probably puts the Celtics in the Finals. That's a much tougher series than the Magic team they saw.

And Houston actually played a style of game without Yao that was tougher for the Lakers to handle.

You say Denver was not a Conference Finals caliber team, and yet they swept through the playoffs to that point, and were picked by many to beat the Lakers.

If Cleveland was a tougher matchup, why did Orlando beat them--and handily? Are you the only person paying attention to basketball that actually thinks Cleveland is more than LeBron and a relatively weak supporting cast? The Lakers beat Cleveland on the road when no one else did. That's the tougher matchup?

And as for KG, no denying that a healthy Boston would have changed the complexion of this playoffs. But the Lakers also swept them in the regular season, and Cleveland was still proving to be the better team over Boston in the regular season even when KG was around (albeit not by much).

Really, at this point, to crap on the achievement the Lakers have done sounds seriously like sour grapes. Give them their just due. They earned it.

Orlando was 2-0 vs the Lakers in the regular season so the regular season doesn't mean shit. A healthy KG and the Celtics are easily in the finals. The Lakers were much improved this year so it would have been a great series between those two.

But other than that I don't think the Lakers got lucky and avoided good teams in the playoffs. Orlando was better than Cleveland and Denver was the next best the west had to offer this year and the Lakers beat them both pretty handedly. You have to give their front office, Phil, and Kobe a lot of credit.

That I agree with (on Boston). They were probably the toughest matchup for the Lakers. That said, I still don't know that they get past the Cavs or the Magic. They didn't show themselves to be as good as the Cavs when KG was healthy, and they were only a little better than the Magic at that time as well.

It would have a been a great series to see, though, yes.

Houston is better with Yao. They had a better chance of winning that series with him in there than with him out.

I'm not saying Denver and Orlando is bad, I'm saying neither team could beat the teams that were in their spots last year. Orlando is not better than last year's Celtics while Denver is not better than last year's Spurs.

That means the Lakers had an easier time. If KG's knee doesn't go kaput, they probably lose in the Finals again. I'm not saying they don't deserve the title or that they were lucky, just that it's much easier to run the table this year than it has been in previous seasons. None of the teams they beat were considered legitimate championship contenders before the playoffs began.

Easily the best playoffs from first round to the Finals in the past three or so seasons. Almost every game in every series was a must-watch.

The Lakers had a tougher road to the Finals this year, but they managed to keep it together and deliver in the clutch, specially in Games two and four of the Finals. This could easily have been 3-1 Orlando, if things didn't fall into place for LA.

The Celtics wouldn't have gone past the Cavs, even if KG had been healthy. That Cavs team was built to destroy the Celtics, specially after the Conference Finals loss last year. That's why the Cavs were ill-equipped to handle the Magic at all.

Houston is a better team with Yao. They did NOT have a better chance of winning that series with him in there than with him out, and the results bear that out. The Lakers were obliterated twice by the post-Yao Rockets. If anything should have been made clear to you in the Finals, it is that quick point guards give the Lakers far more issues than big time centers.

I don't have an issue with you saying the path this year was less than last year's. I have an issue with you disrespecting the achievement, which is still quite significant. Calling it "easy" is disrespectful to what the Lakers did, insults the other teams in the league and insults the level of work the Lakers put into the championship.

And basically saying it doesn't add "much" to Kobe's legacy, that's just sad. That's you trying to bring a guy down because you don't like him. Give respect. They earned it, and he earned it. Be classy.

I agree. The Celtics hadn't shown they would beat the Cavs in a seven game series, even healthy. That's not to say they're worse. I view it like this. There were three top teams in the East, and they formed a triangle. The Magic were an ideal team to beat the Cavs. The Cavs had shown in the regular season that they had at least a slight edge over the Celtics, and seemed likely to be the team that could beat them (especially with home court). I don't think the Magic could beat the healthy Celtics in a series. So it came down to matchup, who met who first. Well, KG being out removed the Celtics from the equation (kudos to them, though, for the fight they gave without him). So that meant it was going to be Magic-Cavs, and the Magic were going to the Finals.

Easy to say in hindsight, of course--I don't think any of this was that obvious before the playoffs, but it seems so now.

I would have loved to have seen a (healthy) Celtics-Cavs series, too, though.

What do you feel this adds to his legacy that wasn't already there? He was already considered a great player who has had a great career. I wasn't bashing his title, I'm just saying I don't think people will look back on this and call it a major moment.

Fact is that while it's another title, it doesn't hold the weight that beating Lebron or a KG-led Celtics would have. Beating Lebron moves him up to another level, beating Hedo Turkoglu doesn't.

I have nothing against Kobe. I enjoyed the close games in this playoffs but still believe it was a much weaker path to a championship than in previous seasons.

You must have missed the media diarrhea the past seven seasons about Kobe needing to win one without Shaq then. I realize I live in LA, where it's everywhere, but even outside of LA, I would have thought it was pretty apparent.

This is the long awaited title that is all Kobe, that seals him as a great player on his own right, and no one can say anymore he was just a second fiddle to Shaq. Of course, his "greatness" has long been established, but the "win one without Shaq" criticism has been on him heavy for some time now.

Fail

That's just ESPN bullshit. Kobe was always considered a great player and one of the best in the league at this time.

I wouldn't say he did it all alone though. He has a great supporting cast. Pau is an all-star and one of the best scoring big men in the league. Lamar is a tough matchup that has the talent to be an all-star caliber player on any night. Remember before the Lakers bulked up their team, Kobe was struggling to get his Lakers into the playoffs.

Kobe is within reach of another two titles in his career and that puts him in some rare company. He's already a top 5 guard of all time with everyone not named Jordan still within reach of passing.


Wow. Incredibly asinine comment. Nobody cares who you beat. Nobody remembers AI, or Kidd, or Miller losing in the finals to the Lakers and those were East teams built just like this Magic team. One superstar and a bunch of average joes.


I think we need a sound clip of Christian Bale going off. It would sound rather appropriate


That Dallas Miami series was certainly the stuff legends are made of...

I wouldn't say he did it alone either. But this is his title. No doubt about it.

Neither did Jordan (do it alone), who also struggled to get his Bulls titles before Pippen and Grant got up to par and they hired Jackson and improved the talent around him.

That doesn't mean Jordan doesn't deserve full credit for his titles.

The cast around Kobe has improved. But there is no doubt this is his team.

And ESPN BS or not, it was there and leveled at him all the same, by Shaq, by the media (both ESPN and non-ESPN), by fans.

BTW, Kobe only really "struggled" to get his team into the playoffs once, in 2005, when they didn't make it in. They weren't the 8th seed from 2006-08, you know.

You know, Bug, one wonders, speaking of Rainmaker's assertion about KG--what would have happened in 1991 if Magic and Byron don't get hurt?

Heck, what if Bynum didn't get hurt last year!

I hate playing what-ifs. These were the cards the Lakers were dealt with this season. Kobe finally wins a title as the leader and finally steps out of the looming shadow of Shaq.

One thing I'm hoping he'd do is REST.

Kobe Bryant hasn't rested since the summer of '07. Two straight finals appearances and the Olympics... the guy is a complete nut.

I sure hope he finally gets that broken finger fixed in the offseason.

I don't like combining the two guard spots since they are so different from one another. But Kobe is the 2nd best SG to play the game. Something he was before he won this title.

Do you know anything about NBA history? Do you really feel Bird and Magic's legacies would be the same had they not done battle with one another in the Finals? Would Russell's titles have the same lore had he not had to go through Wilt to do it? Don't you think it would have mellowed Jordan's legacy if he hadn't had to go through the biggest superstars in the league in the finals?

The Magic weren't built like the Lakers. Howard isn't a superstar no matter what ESPN tells you. He's a talented young player who disappears when it matters most. Maybe he'll grow into a superstar, but he's not right now. The Magic are built around a lot of really good players who happen to play well together.

That was a pretty shitty series, but it had some good drama and a great comeback.

Rainmaker's right, Lebron James is an ass for not living up to his end of the deal.

No one's blaming Kobe for that. Just a fact that beating Lebron or a KG-led Celtics would have done more for his legacy than this Magic team.

No doubt.



Yup. And Jordan went through one of the driest talent periods of the NBA, but that didn't seem to taint his legacy.


It's almost like playing as a team has it's advantages?


The point is, no one cares about the losing team. It means little on who you beat. You can't control that aspect so why should it matter?

Kobe's legacy was sealed with an Finals MVP. Unless he wins 2 more titles, then we would have some interesting debates around here

The 90's saw Robinson, Drexler, Olajuwon, Ewing, Stockton, Malone, and Barkley in their prime. Jordan had to go through the Bad Boys, a tough Knicks team, and teams out of the West led by Magic, Payton, Barkley, Drexler, and Stockton/Malone. He never went into a Finals against a team that didn't have a Hall of Famer on the team.

I don't think the era is as flashy as others due to the defensive rules and style, but it was a rather competitive one. If Jordan was able to play his entire career without hand checking and with defensive 3-seconds, I don't want to even think of what he'd have done. Not to mention the rules currently in place that would have probably suspended the entire Knicks and Pistons roster for their fouls on him in the playoffs.

The big difference in the two is that Jordan was the best player in the league throughout the 90's. Kobe has never been the best player in the league at any given time.

I wonder how the offseason will go for Orlando. Turkoglu will opt out of his deal, Gortat will be gone, everyone else who matters will be back. They don't have a first round draft pick.

Turkoglu will want a fair bit more than the $6.9m he made this season and resigning him long-term would make things pretty inflexible in terms of the salary cap. I like Turk but I'm also tired of seeing Howard having to get every rebound, defend the interior all by himself, and seeing Lewis having to guard guys like Gasol. A proper power forward might make up for the loss of Turk's shooting and playmaking by easing the load on Howard and allowing Lewis to play his natural position. Maybe Alston could be traded for a bigger guard who can nail threes, they have too many guards right now.

However, the current group was a missed layup and a missed foul shot away from being up 3-2 in the Finals, and all that with All-Star point guard Nelson either not playing or playing but ineffective in the Finals after being rushed back from that shoulder injury. Boston's big three will be another year older and Cleveland struggles with Orlando, doesn't really have anything that enticing to trade for another star (Shaq isn't the answer imo), and hell Lebron might leave them after next season anyway. Maybe Orlando should resign Turkoglu even if the price is a bit much, they could be looking at a few more Finals appearances in the coming years.

The future is bright despite how much tonight sucked.

I actually think this might be a window of opportunity that closed on the Magic tonight. The East only gets tougher from here on out. Chicago and Miami will get better in the coming years. Lebron is just going to get hungrier and his supporting cast can't get much worse. And the Celtics will probably get KG back at some point next year and are in talks with adding someone like Stoudamire to the roster.

They'll be a top tier team in the East, but I definitely think things get much tougher for them.

The question I'm looking forward to being answered is how long is Detroit's rebuilding going to take.

Joe Dumars simply threw in the towel for this season with the Iverson-Billups trade, freeing up nearly $30 mil in expiring salary at the end of the season.

Detroit is going to have a lot of money ($18 mil, IIRC) and an established core (Hamilton, Prince, Stuckey) to attract free agents in the next two years.

Which is all that more damning because it's not like Houston was anywhere near full strength, missing TMac for all of the series and Yao for half and that went 7 games. I'm not going to say something too stupid like "it's an easy playoff so they don't get credit for the win". Far from it- this isn't the NFL where you can win 3 games and you get the trophy. You still have to win 16 and once you get out of the first round, everyone is a quality opponent. I just wish my team were at full strength because we would have had a legit shot to win it all. That's regret on our side and takes nothing away from the title.

I don't like Kobe at all and *I* think it really does matter that he finally won one where it's his team and without Shaq. I could take any of the top 10 players today, put them on a team with early LA Shaq and a competent supporting cast and we might as well just hand them 2 or 3 titles. No one was saying Kobe wasn't a good player, say, on par with Deron Williams or Chris Bosh. This is about weighing him against the all time greats and, yes, he was falling short.

He's not on a team of rubes where he's the only good player, tho, as I have heard in some places. Odom and Gasol, in particular, could be good 2nd/3rd options on any championship caliber team so Kobe had a good team and good role players like Fisher around him. But, again, Jordan had his Pippen and a good ensemble when he started winning. But this was definitely his team where he was the only superstar and that does mean something.

SI

I would say just the opposite - that this has the chance to be the start of a good run for the Magic but the biggest factor in anything is Dwight Howard. Howard needs to become a dominant center. If he can add at least one post move and improve his FT shooting and ability to pass out of double teams then Orlando is the team to beat. I think they need to keep Turk - yeah it puts them into luxury tax territory but a lineup of Nelson, Lee, Turk, Lewis and Howard is very, very solid.

The Celtics will have KG back but might trade Ray Allen (last year of his contract and Ainge knows his team is OLD plus has contract decisions coming up like Rondo). I don't see Perkins being able to stop Howard. Same for the Cavs - we already saw what a bad matchup that is for them. Miami only gets better if they add another superstar - Bosh wants to play there so they might get him in 2010 or see if they can trade for him but I can't see Toronto trading him unless they got Beasley in the deal and I don't like Chicago - Rose is going to be a good player but they may lose Gordon to free agency and they really need to make some moves to straighten the roster out. If they keep Gordon then why have Salmons and Deng? Who's going to take Deng with his contract? Who's going to stop Howard in the post? Brad Miller? Noah? Ty Thomas? Please...

Detroit is interesting because of the cap room and both Gordon and Boozer have been rumored as possible adds as well as the possibility of trading Rip or Prince. I say if we find a buyer for Rip to do it. Detroit might end up with a decent starting lineup but we have zero depth. Dyess is probably going to a contender (and he should after playing his ass off here to get a ring), Amir Johnson was a disaster and Joe wants to move his contract, Maxiell is a good energy guy but that's what he's good for - 20-25 minutes of high energy but that's his ceiling IMO. Bynum, Afflalo - maybe they turn into decent role players. Even if they sign Boozer that still leaves them one post player short and they might be able to draft Mullens but he's going to take time to develop too.

Like I said, I think everything for Orlando rests on Howard. The Magic are constructed perfectly for him - with Lee, Turk and Lewis all being outside shooters that should leave plenty of space for Nelson to be able to drive and for Howard to post. I think it would be a mistake to get another post player (or even play a guy like Gortat with him) because you're just adding another defender in the post and taking away Howard's room. If he can prove that he's got more than one move (back them down and dunk) and can pass or even take a dribble and then pass out of a double/triple team then they're going to be really, really tough to defend. The one move Orlando needs to do is ship Alston - that guy has the ability to implode that team with his attitude - not to mention that he's just way too inconsistent.

dola

I can think of one other move Orlando should make if they want to win a championship but they wouldn't have the balls to do it

I think you're mixing up series, Magic and Byron got hurt in the 89 Finals against the Pistons who swept them 4-0. Prior to the Finals, that Lakers team looked better than the 88 team that repeated and beat the Pistons 4-3.

Look at some of these players though, Drexler was on his way out of the league by 96, and his peak was awfully short.

How dominant was Patrick Ewing? Looking back, was it partially that he was an above average center, and part that there were no other great centers? Olajuwon, Stockton, and Malone were all great. Barkley could be up there as well, but who else were on those teams?

I think the 90s were haunted by the legacy of the 80s which was a league that propped up the superstars, and when Magic and Bird left, there were suddenly a lot fewer of them. The players you named were all players that they tried to pass the mantle to, but they lacked the skills of Magic and Bird.

Magic led the Lakers to all but two NBA Finals in the 80s. He won two titles against Dr. J, and two against Bird. His other title came against Isiah's Pistons. The two times they did not get to the Finals they lost to the Rockets. In 81, Magic was hurt and his comeback largely derailed the team and led ultimately to Westhead's firing in 82, while in 86, the Lakers were derailed by the Twin Towers of the Rockets.

In the 80s, the Celtics had to first beat Dr. J's 76ers, and then later had to beat the Pistons and Bulls. That was to just get to the Finals. Where they would meet the Lakers.

The 76ers had multiple HoF caliber players on the team, the Celtics had 3, (4 in 86 with Walton playing as a sixth man when healthy), the Lakers had 3, borderline 4. You simply didn't have teams of that caliber in the 90s. Portland had Drexler and Porter, but Porter was not HoF caliber. The Rockets had a number of past their prime superstars, with the exception of Olajuwon. But they never ran up against the Bulls in either of their runs. But they would have been annihilated by the Bulls. Outside of Stockton and Malone, can you name one other player on any of their Jazz teams?

The 90s just didn't have any great teams, outside of the Bulls, and it showed.

Perkins didn't have much problem with Howard this year. Between Perk + Big Baby they were able to force him outside his range fairly consistently.

I thought Hornacek was good at what he did. The Sonics were a good team. Payton will be a HoFer, and they had respectable other players like Schrempf and Kemp.

I didn't read the argument going on, just this last post about the 90s having lesser talent when Jordan was around and although I don't feel like going through rosters, that just feels wrong. I remember being so excited to watch basketball back then.

All the players in NBA Jam are better than 90% of this year's playoff rosters, and I may or may not be joking.

Fire the coach?

I'll take that as a serious comment and agree with it unless someone disproves it.

Doesn't NBA Jam only have two players per team? :p

I'm not saying that there weren't great players in the 90s, what I am saying is that the overall talent pool was drying up a good bit. You didn't have the collection of talent that other teams had.

Agreed - I guess I wasn't clear. I'm talking assuming Howard does what he needs to do to get to the next level. There's no next level for Perk and Big Baby :) I think if Orlando wants to win a title Howard has to be the dominant big man he can become. Right now you can stop him by either pushing him further than dunk range or just run multiple guys at him and let him turn the ball over.

Yup - if it could be botched SVG did it all playoffs long. He got away with the Cleveland series only because their coach is worse. Instead he'll get an extension for getting to the Finals. Shaq was right when he called him the master of panic and predicted that he would let the team down in important playoff situations which he did time and time again. He can blame Jameer Nelson all he wants for not stepping up on Fisher at the 3 line in game four but a) it was a dumb defensive play to begin with and b) why is Nelson even in the game when you need one defensive stop and have a taller and better defensive guard on the bench in Courtney Lee?

Three, actually, but if you put them with an average NBA bench nowadays, I think Pumpy might actually be onto something. Especially in the East.

SI

Alternatively it only seems like teams have less talent because the game has shifted to service the superstars at the expense of contributions from the role players.

I think a nice exercise would be to name the second-best player on each team and then pick the second-best player from each NBA Jam team and see who would kick whose ass. I mean, hell, I'm not going through that assignment, but I'm throwing it out there.

NBA Jam or NBA Jam TE?

TE shits on the original. Hardaway/Anderson/Grant (but with Shaq's attributes since he couldn't be in the game due to the abortion known as Shaq Fu) ftw.

I would use the original NBA Jam just to stress test my point. That would be epic.

I would use TE since it's the vastly superior version ;)

SI

Get the ball rolling.... ;)

NBA Jam
NBA Jam Tournament Edition
NBA.com Team Index

Atlanta: Stacey Augmon vs Josh Smith? I liked Augmon as a player, and Smith is good too, but I'll say Augmon.

I really only say to use NBA Jam because it only had two players per team, and it would be fairly easy to agree on who the #2 guy was supposed to be. I'm trying to get us all on the same page here. This is supposed to be scientific!!!

LOL. Reading through the wiki entry for T.E., came across this:


One of these things is not like the others...

Yeah, what the hell is Michael Jordan in Chaos in the Windy City?

Oh, I see what you mean.

Really? Cedric Ceballos was on the Harlem Globetrotters?

SI