From what I can tell, they've been in attack dog mode since sometime last night.

Okay, anybody actually surprised by this at this point? (the suspension of services, not the shots fired that we already knew about)
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050901/D8CBFD9O5.html

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - The evacuation of the Superdome was suspended Thursday after shots were fired at a military helicopter, an ambulance official overseeing the operation said. No immediate injuries were reported.

"We have suspended operations until they gain control of the Superdome," said Richard Zeuschlag, head of Acadian Ambulance, which was handling the evacuation of sick and injured people from the Superdome.

He said that military would not fly out of the Superdome either because of the gunfire and that the National Guard told him that it was sending 100 military police officers to gain control.

"That's not enough," Zeuschlag. "We need a thousand."

He said that shots were fired at a military helicopter over the Superdome before daybreak.

He also said that during the night, when a medical evacuation helicopter tried to land at a hospital in the outlying town of Kenner, the pilot reported that 100 people were on the landing pad, and some of them had guns.

"He was frightened and would not land," Zeuschlag.

He said medics were calling him and crying for help because they were so scared of people with guns at the Superdome.

So then, we're talking about a month of that murky, nasty water just sitting there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this pretty much (apart from the predictions that the storm surge would push the water over the levees) the exact "Doomsday Scenario" that has been predicted for years?

Here's an article from four years ago...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/581820/posts

We've also seen the AJC and National Geographic articles. No, it wasn't the direct storm surge, but the bottom line is that it seems like we are at the worst-case scenario. As it was pointed out in this thread, "the water has stopped rising" is probably not something to celebrate; it sounds like "the water has stopped rising"="it has gotten as bad as it can possibly get."

I'm not trying to be negative; I'm just trying to get a handle on exactly where we are. It seems like people were using the "doomsday scenario" soundbite before Katrina hit, but aren't using that terminology anymore--even though that looks like where we are.

Thoughts?

Just off-hand, I think you're hearing it less because it does seem like it could have been even worse than it is. There are buildings still standing, there are people still alive, etc.

Also, I think you may hear the doomsday comparison a little less because more people are aware of the background of the city's development now than they were a week ago. When it's all hypothetical, I think Mother Nature was perceived as the villian, or at least it's all just theory. At this point though, now that the storm has taken on a "face" it'd be hard not to sound like we're blaming the victims (which doesn't always go over well).

Ground evacuation efforts from the Superdome now also suspended, due to fires set around the neighborhood.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/0...act/index.html

Agreed, but at least my understanding of the "doomsday" soundbite was the whole water-in-the-city-for-an-extended-period-of-time thing, which it appears we're facing.

I hear you there, but it seems that the blame should be placed on those who made the foolish decision to expand the city the way they did. I don't really blame the victims individually as I blame mankind's arrogance in general. I just posted those three articles, and I've heard it said over and over again: because of the way the city is built, it wasn't a question of if, it was a question of when.

I didn't seen Aaron Brown last night and I haven't watched much CNN, partially because I have been working about 13-14 hours a day, but mainly because I can only stomach about 5-10 minutes of it. But, I was just wondering what "attack mode" is being initiated? You mentioned earlier that forces were already at work to blame the president for this or at least use this even to paint him in a negative light. How so? I guess the only route would be to say that the reaction time was poor and that not enough precautions were taken. I don't think this will have any legs. It sounds like a poor startegy.

You know, what I don't understand about the looting and shooting and fires, is why are people doing it?

I mean, all you hear on the news is how upset people are that "New Orleans wasn't prepared, even though the warning signs were there," (at least, in the interviews, there seem to be a lot of bitter residents who were the ones forced to stay there being to poor, frail, or old). Now they're trying to help these people. And the lootings, shootings, and fires just hinder that help.

Maybe it's some aspect of human psychology I don't understand (I don't understand much of human nature), maybe it's just their frustration and the heat, but I don't really get it... :(

/tk

I haven't been following this closely, but I know Germany and some Senator or Governor in the US is already using this to slam Bush's global warming policy. I believe words were said within hours of the hurricane dissipating.

Yeah, I don't see them getting to many followers on that bandwagon.

They think they can stop it and commandeer it somehow and out of despiration, envy and anger.

I agree. People should not be afraid to ask the hard questions now--even if they step on some toes--because it will help us rebuild the City smarter and better.

As I pointed out in the other thread, you are spot on in noting that it is general human nature to try to manipulate the environment to suit our needs. Maybe, in a best case scenario, this will get people living in all sorts of areas that are not really fit for lage scale human habitation (the middle of the desert, on major fault lines, exposed to Pacific Ocean Tsunamis, etc.) to evaluate their situations and start planning with "not if, but when" in mind.

tk, I also have a very hard time understanding why. My only guess is what Chemical Soldier said, trying to take matters into their own hand. I guess the level on panic on some people is so that it makes them do weird stuff.

"See a helicopter, got gun, will try to take control of helicopter so it can take me away from this mess..."

Sad, sad mess... :(

FM

I don't think they have any intention of taking the helicopter. I think they've dropped into "Lord of the Flies" mode and are trying to exert their brute force against anyone and everything other than themselves.

Well, I just saw this editorial in the New York Times:

September 1, 2005

Waiting for a Leader

George W. Bush gave one of the worst speeches of his life yesterday, especially given the level of national distress and the need for words of consolation and wisdom. In what seems to be a ritual in this administration, the president appeared a day later than he was needed. He then read an address of a quality more appropriate for an Arbor Day celebration: a long laundry list of pounds of ice, generators and blankets delivered to the stricken Gulf Coast. He advised the public that anybody who wanted to help should send cash, grinned, and promised that everything would work out in the end.

We will, of course, endure, and the city of New Orleans must come back. But looking at the pictures on television yesterday of a place abandoned to the forces of flood, fire and looting, it was hard not to wonder exactly how that is going to come to pass. Right now, hundreds of thousands of American refugees need our national concern and care. Thousands of people still need to be rescued from imminent peril. Public health threats must be controlled in New Orleans and throughout southern Mississippi. Drivers must be given confidence that gasoline will be available, and profiteering must be brought under control at a moment when television has been showing long lines at some pumps and spot prices approaching $4 a gallon have been reported.

Sacrifices may be necessary to make sure that all these things happen in an orderly, efficient way. But this administration has never been one to counsel sacrifice. And nothing about the president's demeanor yesterday - which seemed casual to the point of carelessness - suggested that he understood the depth of the current crisis.

While our attention must now be on the Gulf Coast's most immediate needs, the nation will soon ask why New Orleans's levees remained so inadequate. Publications from the local newspaper to National Geographic have fulminated about the bad state of flood protection in this beloved city, which is below sea level. Why were developers permitted to destroy wetlands and barrier islands that could have held back the hurricane's surge? Why was Congress, before it wandered off to vacation, engaged in slashing the budget for correcting some of the gaping holes in the area's flood protection?

It would be some comfort to think that, as Mr. Bush cheerily announced, America "will be a stronger place" for enduring this crisis. Complacency will no longer suffice, especially if experts are right in warning that global warming may increase the intensity of future hurricanes. But since this administration won't acknowledge that global warming exists, the chances of leadership seem minimal.

-----------------

While, sure, leadership means leading, and symbols matter, I think this editorial is pathetic. Hopefully this line of thiming wont go too much further than a crappy editorial like this. Attacking the president for this mess, or even using it as an opportunity to attack, seems pretty freaking weak. I dunno, what can a chimp-made-president do about the biggest flood ever? A great speech, made one day earlier, and saying that climate change is real after all would have saved not one life.

I don't think this administration (as f*cked up and horrible as it is and boy is it ever!) is to blame for inadequate flood protection or the erosion of wetlands. That's just absurd. While there may in fact be a connection between global warming and increased potency of hurricanes (who knows?), there will be plenty of scientists who refute that. While that sort of thing is fine for a mediocre effects-driven summer movie, I don't think it will stand up in this arena.

FoxNews talking with boat-borne rescuers who have been ordered to stand down TFN.
Apparently after the helicopters went away, the rescue workers in the boats had become the next object of target practice.

Extremely predicatable I know, but I figured it would at least take a little while longer than it did.

DingDingDing.

And it reminds me of a very disturbing thought I had on the first night -- when all is said & done and the recounting of tales from the warzone begins, I expect the amount of sexual assaults that are taking place will be staggering.

We've got a mini Post Apocalyptic wasteland in New Orleans right now. No law. No electricity. No running water. People devolve into the "survival of the fittest" mentality pretty quickly and will look to take advantage of the situation, or gain an edge, any way possible.

It probably wont be long before some dude puts on an old goalie mask and starts refering to himself as "The Humungus."

it's even sadder than I thought it could be... :(

FM

sorry, but what does "stand down TFN" mean?

FM

I started to agree with you ... and then realized that I'm really not all that surprised when you get right down to it.

Driving back home from taking my son to school this morning, it struck me that similar (or even less extreme) circumstances would be likely to produce similar things right here in my little rural town. Only difference would be the raw numbers of predators & prey.

Stand down unTil Further Notice aka don't go back out there until we tell you to.

FTr, that was my paraphrase, not an exact quote.

"You are the Duke of New Orleans! You are A-number-one!"

I imagine, in a fantasy world, that the State had the resources of the Federal Govt (proportionate to its size). In other words, instead of waiting for the massive bureaucracy to get their wheels moving and resources gathered from disparate sources and places, Louisiana and surrounding states would have the same thing and can act and move quicker.

Maybe the Confederates were right after all.

oh no, getting down to it, I guess one can't be really surprised, but it still saddens me to no end. I'm probably too naive for my own good...

FM

thanks, had never heard that abbreviation before.

FM

I agree with JiMG's assessment of the media (particularly CNN's) handling of the situation. A couple reporters seem hell-bent on making sure there is plenty of blame to go around. There will be a time and a place to second-guess things that occurred, but you can second-guess almost everything. Instead of trying to find solutions they are trying to dig up more problems, something that is not needed at this time.

Of course the Mayor of Biloxi and New Orleans are just as guilty of spreading the blame. Everyone is already full on into the political swing.

I think it would help short-term, but where would all the long-term assistance come from? I would think the recovery would take much more money than one state could hope to provide. Also, poorer states such as Mississippi could more easily be overwhelmed by the task. I agree that local response, in an ideal world, could have been better, but I think there would still be a number of different problems that would arise.

I guess I don't understand anyone would be surprised at the lawlessness going on. Hasn't history proved - every single time - that given an excuse (i.e., lack of protection and force), people will riot, loot, cause destruction in the inner cities?

Does anyone know where Belfast street would be on the after map?

Perhaps the middle ground would be the feds distributing the wealth but it is the states that control, manage and allocate. For example, a major hospital ship should be availabe to any coastal state (and under the jurisdiction of the state) within 12 hours - not from a centralized port far away.

This speaks to the idea of a Confederacy instead of a Federal system.

Right... Ther water resistent defense system is in place because we know hurricanes never hit us. Because we never had something like this in New Orleans happen to wake us up that our greatest nemesis is not the commies, not the nazis, but it's the water.

That sad, if the same kind of hurricane would hit us, you'd some serious damage here too, the only difference is that the water defense system is there to limit the damage. There are flooding incidents here every year (not from see, but from the big European rivers that stream into the Atlantic Ocean in the netherlands) and they keep us awake and remember the big hurricane in 1953. Mind you, it took almost 50 years to complete building the entire water defense system. New studies show that sea level will rise faster and the current system would have been great in 1960, but only be 'just good enough' in 2010. The water comes from all side (and not just 3 of 4 like with New Orleans), it's no exaggeration that our country would be flooded for 1/3rd and see all the important cities in trouble (The Hague, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, the rest of Holland and much more).

When I read about the pump to keep all dry being below sea level I almost had to laugh about it. It sounds silly and I even called it an insult to the powers of water.

Enough bashing from and/or to my country.
Right now, it's time to see how New Orleans can be rebuilt and with a water-defense system that can limit (limit, not avoid!) the damage. I'm not the person to ask for it, but I bet inside my country the knowledge is available to help out.

Thank you for wishing us go through that again.
Asshole.

Edit: This is probably the last thread to call someone that, let alone after my own previous statement, but I can't think of a better word to fit there...

Chemical Soldier been a bit overwrought lately, so take that for what it's worth.

I found my old house. :(

Frankly, as soon as the levee broke Sunday night (or was it Monday?) and it looked like water was going to fill most of the city, that was I figured it became the "doomsday scenario". When only a small portion of the city was underwater, after the initial storm hit- it seemed like the worst was over. But, again, as soon as the levee's broke, this became a major ecological catastrophe as the city turned into the lake it is now and pretty much condemned all of those buildings and the land they were built on.

SI

Sorry buddy. :(

Which is why I am very thankful I have the right to own a firearm. Situations such as we're seeing in NO only reinforces my belief that I need to be able to protect myself because there may be times when no one else can.

(and no Cam didn't pay me to say that :p)

Louisiana isn't exactly a rich state and neither are the areas around it. They wouldn't be able to mobilize nearly enough. Never mind that the red tape would only be slightly slower as the state governments seem as corrupt and inept as the federal government- it's just not as high profile because it's on a local scale.

SI

I'm just surprised at how much it affects me to see that. My family got out, so things should be rosey.

But thanks, Coug.

I think this cuts both ways, no? Sure, on one hand it's great to have the right to own a firearm, but on the other hand isn't that right part of what's causing the problem? If there was no right to own a firearm I reckon there would be a hell of a lot less shooting at rescuers (unless they were using bows and arrows or sling-shots). The fact that "looters" could break into the local Wal-Mart and steal guns and ammo is pretty alarming, no?

An armed society is a polite society.

The facts are (and I'm sure Cam has the numbers memorized) that gun control laws do NOTHING to curb violent crime. Outlaws have no problem getting illegal weapons.

Please don't get into a gun control argument in this thread.

Don't worry. It wont. Just needed to point out the obvious.

What makes me sad about the whole situation is that the longer it takes, the better chance that people can die from anything else other than starvation or chaos. Already the city had graves above ground and I believe a number of them are floating around. Combine that with the recently dead and whatever possible sewage could be in that water and I can see why people would become frustrated, scared and desperate at this time.

And what I don't understand is why the high hostility for the looting. Don't get me wrong, looting is bad and the people who are basically taking advantage should be prosecuted, but shot. I never hear this kind of talk after stores get looted after a team wins a championship. And I am not liking this zero tolerance policy, because that means the law enforcement/military will be forced to go after the people who are seeking water and canned goods as well. What do you expect for the people to do when there is no other option to survive?

FFS, is everyone in the White House press corps out there to either nail the President or suck up to him?

"Why didn't the President act earlier?"
(ok, I liked the allowances for looters of food/water question)
"What did the President feel when he dipped down in Air Force 1 and saw the tragedy?"

First a biting criticism and then a sappy layup question that McClellan beamed at so much he couldn't have written it better himself.

SI

There is a huge difference between survival foraging (gathering food, water, clothing, shelter, etc.) and what seems to be going on all over the city, which is looting of luxury items and other goods that having nothing whatsoever to do with survival.

But the crux of the issue (in my opinion) is that you've got a total breakdown of societal values, respect for law, and the rights of others. Chaos reigns, might makes right. Either you move to stop this or you're abandoning the city and the innocent inhabitants that remain to a primal landscape where it's truly predators vs. prey.

Just a little update (forgive the repeat post from another thread):

I'm still hanging out in a hotel in North Little Rock, AR. Just called many apartment complexes in Baton Rouge, Lafayette, and Lake Charles. All of them are full thanks to many recent evacuees who thought of the same thing quicker than I did. I finallyfound two furnished corporate apartments that will be available in Shreveport, LA in a week (actually the second one will be available in 10 days or so.)

Looks like I'm moving to Shreveport for a few months. Hopefully, LSU Medical School in New Orleans will be able to transfer my contract and get me work in the Shreveport area since there is an LSU Medical School there.

And then have the obvious pointed back at you