Front Office Football Central

Front Office Football Central (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//index.php)
-   Off Topic (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   The Trump Presidency – 2016 (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//showthread.php?t=92014)

molson 02-02-2019 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew (Post 3230310)
I guess I am of the era where you could dress up like Michael Jackson without using blackface and you'd be just fine. he must be thriller era?


I think before the internet, there was plenty of blackface costumes out there that were just rooted in ignorance. I remember in 5th or 6th grade (around 1989) we were doing some school skit, someone was playing Mike Tyson and talked about finding something to rub on his face to make it black. Fortunately, a teacher immediately shot that down and gave just a brief lesson about why that was no good. But we honestly just didn't know - skin color was just skin color and we were way more racially innocent than the teachers correcting us. I can see that ignorance lasting longer, even into young adulthood, in communities where you don't have good role models shutting it down. It really is something you have to learn is wrong. It's harder to have that excuse now. And you'd expect more from someone who would become Governor, even in that era, especially when they were an adult.

Warhammer 02-02-2019 06:59 PM

Nice to see racists are represented in both political parties.

EDIT: Seeing how everyone was beating up people on the right since there were absolutely NO racist democrats...

Thomkal 02-02-2019 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight (Post 3230316)
‪Would you be completely shocked if at least one Dem 2020 contender’s campaign has reached out to Northam’s people asking him to hold off on resigning until the candidate can issue a statement demanding his resignation?‬



In this day and age, absolutely not.

NobodyHere 02-02-2019 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warhammer (Post 3230318)
Nice to see racists are represented in both political parties.

EDIT: Seeing how everyone was beating up people on the right since there were absolutely NO racist democrats...


Before we go all "Both sides..." remember that Northram is being savagely attacked by his own party right now and there are no calls from the right for Trump or Steve King to step down.

JPhillips 02-02-2019 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 3230317)
I think before the internet, there was plenty of blackface costumes out there that were just rooted in ignorance. I remember in 5th or 6th grade (around 1989) we were doing some school skit, someone was playing Mike Tyson and talked about finding something to rub on his face to make it black. Fortunately, a teacher immediately shot that down and gave just a brief lesson about why that was no good. But we honestly just didn't know - skin color was just skin color and we were way more racially innocent than the teachers correcting us. I can see that ignorance lasting longer, even into young adulthood, in communities where you don't have good role models shutting it down. It really is something you have to learn is wrong. It's harder to have that excuse now. And you'd expect more from someone who would become Governor, even in that era, especially when they were an adult.


But the Klan robe is absolutely positively out of bounds and he knew it.

Radii 02-02-2019 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warhammer (Post 3230318)
Nice to see racists are represented in both political parties.

EDIT: Seeing how everyone was beating up people on the right since there were absolutely NO racist democrats...


We beat up racists on the right because we should be fucking ridding our nation of racism. And their party fucking defends them do the bitter end and actively attempts to normalize such behavior. Are you serious?! As others have pointed out, his own party is calling for this racist to resign.

If Mueller's investigation finds corrupt democrats in congress working with the same russians that the Trump Campaign was working with, that's GREAT!!! Get them ALL the fuck out. Root out the corruption, remove it, protect our god damn democracy. This isn't a team sport.

NobodyHere 02-02-2019 09:17 PM

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...g-unforgivable

Atocep 02-02-2019 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3230324)


Yeah, I saw this earlier and it's almost sad that this is the world we live in. The GOP has no problem grabbing their pitchforks for Northam and Franken, but we have white supremacists in the Trump Administration and an openly White Supremacist member of Congress that is 100% ok because the GOP is really the party of power at all costs.

Edward64 02-02-2019 09:33 PM

So I know I will be in the minority ...

Unless Northam has shown a pattern of racism, I would let this go. Does it excuse it? No, but those were different times, there was less sensitivity to these issues by whites then etc.

Now if it comes up Northam has done similar things or have been heard to say racist stuff over the past 30+ years, that's a different matter.

MrBug708 02-02-2019 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3230307)
Judge much guys?

Like you all never got black out drunk in college and dressed in KKK garb?

When is it time for a Governor to resign: when the press asks “Gov., are you the one in blackface or are you the one in the white hood?”

stevew 02-02-2019 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3230326)
So I know I will be in the minority ...

Unless Northam has shown a pattern of racism, I would let this go. Does it excuse it? No, but those were different times, there was less sensitivity to these issues by whites then etc.

Now if it comes up Northam has done similar things or have been heard to say racist stuff over the past 30+ years, that's a different matter.


He's the Coonman after all

JPhillips 02-02-2019 10:21 PM

He's known about a time he appeared in blackface for decades and kept it secret. This isn't about what he did 35 years ago, it's about a guy that tried to hide it and only when he was caught expressed remorse. If he had owned up to this previously it would be a different matter IMO, but he didn't. He's been lying by omission the whole time.

NobodyHere 02-02-2019 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3230329)
He's known about a time he appeared in blackface for decades and kept it secret. This isn't about what he did 35 years ago, it's about a guy that tried to hide it and only when he was caught expressed remorse. If he had owned up to this previously it would be a different matter IMO, but he didn't. He's been lying by omission the whole time.


So you do think every other politician tells voters about all the skeletons in their closet or something?

Edward64 02-03-2019 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3230329)
He's known about a time he appeared in blackface for decades and kept it secret. This isn't about what he did 35 years ago, it's about a guy that tried to hide it and only when he was caught expressed remorse. If he had owned up to this previously it would be a different matter IMO, but he didn't. He's been lying by omission the whole time.


It's only one incident that I know of. Even if it was 2-3-4 in his college days, if there is no/little evidence of his racism since then, I vote we let it go and mark it up to teenage, young adulthood stupidity. I think its reasonable to judge a man and give more weight to his past 10-20 years.

The vast majority of us would not want to be held hostage to stupid things we did way back when.

SackAttack 02-03-2019 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3230326)
So I know I will be in the minority ...

Unless Northam has shown a pattern of racism, I would let this go. Does it excuse it? No, but those were different times, there was less sensitivity to these issues by whites then etc.


Not really sure that's a winning argument tbh

"White people were more okay with making fun of racial minorities then so we shouldn't hold it against a white person that they behaved abominably because their white peers were okay with it" is not terribly exculpatory.

Flasch186 02-03-2019 07:09 AM

The bar has been lowered so far below what I thought was bottom I'm willing to let almost anyone stay. Time is on your side. The trump motto is just waiting it out and eventually, it blows over and he's been right. So do so and live to fight another day.

Edward64 02-03-2019 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SackAttack (Post 3230332)
Not really sure that's a winning argument tbh

"White people were more okay with making fun of racial minorities then so we shouldn't hold it against a white person that they behaved abominably because their white peers were okay with it" is not terribly exculpatory.


The argument is - it was a long time ago, if he hasn't shown a pattern or it hasn't been repeated in the past 10-20 years, let it go as youthful stupidity. We've all done stupid things as young people, we've all got things to be ashamed of.

digamma 02-03-2019 07:37 AM

Wasn't this the same argument you used with Hugh Freeze at Mississippi?

I can actually buy forgiveness. It's important. We do need to learn to forgive one another. That doesn't change the fact that something like this completely neuters you as an executive and a champion on behalf of minority groups. It's not really about whether someone deserves a second chance, it's about whether they can be effective at all in office.

Plus, what radii said.

JPhillips 02-03-2019 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3230330)
So you do think every other politician tells voters about all the skeletons in their closet or something?


If they want me to believe they are different now, yes. Northam rolled the dice hoping that this would never be discovered.

Just in terms of party politics this was incredibly reckless. John Edwards reckless. If Gillespie had found this Northam certainly would have lost.

stevew 02-03-2019 08:50 AM

Maybe the Rs knew about it but didn't want to split the racist vote. ;)

Edward64 02-03-2019 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digamma (Post 3230335)
Wasn't this the same argument you used with Hugh Freeze at Mississippi?

I can actually buy forgiveness. It's important. We do need to learn to forgive one another. That doesn't change the fact that something like this completely neuters you as an executive and a champion on behalf of minority groups. It's not really about whether someone deserves a second chance, it's about whether they can be effective at all in office.

Plus, what radii said.


Not think it was me re: Hugh Freeze (but, in retrospect, I would have forgiven Petrino as AR was doing really well under him :) )

You are right. It would be a lot better if he said it was him, I was young and stupid etc. please forgive me. I've been a pediatric neurosurgeon and I've taken care of all people regardless of race, I've advocated for confederate statues to be taken down etc. I've not shown a pattern etc. whatever.

He should just have apologized.

Maybe I'm missing something here because I've not kept up with Northam. Has he been accused/shown to have racist tendencies in the past 10-20-30 years?

cuervo72 02-03-2019 09:44 AM

Russia's propaganda machine discovers 2020 Democratic candidate Tulsi Gabbard

Probably not a selling point.

digamma 02-03-2019 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3230339)
Not think it was me re: Hugh Freeze (but, in retrospect, I would have forgiven Petrino as AR was doing really well under him :) )

You are right. It would be a lot better if he said it was him, I was young and stupid etc. please forgive me. I've been a pediatric neurosurgeon and I've taken care of all people regardless of race, I've advocated for confederate statues to be taken down etc. I've not shown a pattern etc. whatever.

He should just have apologized.

Maybe I'm missing something here because I've not kept up with Northam. Has he been accused/shown to have racist tendencies in the past 10-20-30 years?


You're right, with Freeze you said his personal life was his personal life. Different argument.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - 2017 College Football Offseason...Stoops Retires

Edward64 02-03-2019 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digamma (Post 3230341)
You're right, with Freeze you said his personal life was his personal life. Different argument.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - 2017 College Football Offseason...Stoops Retires


Okay, thought you were referring to a Freeze racist statement. Give Freeze credit for denouncing the confederate flag.

TBF, I also believe Bill's indiscretions were between him and Hillary. He should not have lied and try to redefine what "sex" was.

larrymcg421 02-03-2019 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuervo72 (Post 3230340)


I'm not aware of a Democrat who is worse than Tulsi Gabbard. I'm a staunchly anti-third party person, but a Gabbard-Trump election is probably what would break me.

SackAttack 02-03-2019 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3230334)
The argument is - it was a long time ago, if he hasn't shown a pattern or it hasn't been repeated in the past 10-20 years, let it go as youthful stupidity. We've all done stupid things as young people, we've all got things to be ashamed of.


Yes fine youthful stupidity

except that "let it go" is a thing that gets applied exclusively to white indiscretions, and that compounds the problem.

If Northam had been a black man, and had somehow been recorded 20 years ago making "jokes" about assaulting white women, do you think anybody would chalk that up to "youthful stupidity"? Anybody at all?

If Brock Turner had been a black man, do you think he gets 30 days because "we shouldn't destroy his life for 20 minutes of action"?

It's a repeating pattern. Sometimes the offense involves physical assault and sometimes it's more akin to emotional denigration, but excuses are nearly always on behalf of the white offender because "boys will be boys," and the same defenders don't show up when the skin color of the offender changes.

And that's especially problematic when the offense in question is committed by the white person *against* a minority group, because it just reinforces the idea that minorities aren't really equal citizens. If a white person does it, we'll excuse it, but if a minority does it, we must destroy them.

Edward64 02-03-2019 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SackAttack (Post 3230344)
Yes fine youthful stupidity

except that "let it go" is a thing that gets applied exclusively to white indiscretions, and that compounds the problem.

If Northam had been a black man, and had somehow been recorded 20 years ago making "jokes" about assaulting white women, do you think anybody would chalk that up to "youthful stupidity"? Anybody at all?

If Brock Turner had been a black man, do you think he gets 30 days because "we shouldn't destroy his life for 20 minutes of action"?

It's a repeating pattern. Sometimes the offense involves physical assault and sometimes it's more akin to emotional denigration, but excuses are nearly always on behalf of the white offender because "boys will be boys," and the same defenders don't show up when the skin color of the offender changes.

And that's especially problematic when the offense in question is committed by the white person *against* a minority group, because it just reinforces the idea that minorities aren't really equal citizens. If a white person does it, we'll excuse it, but if a minority does it, we must destroy them.


There is truth in what you say re: different standards with whites. This is especially more so 30+ years ago but I do think its getting better, especially as the baby boom generation passes the baton.

If your argument is there are different standards and whites very often get the benefit of doubt. No doubt, I agree.

If you argument is there are different standards and that's why Northam who did this racist thing but has not shown a pattern in the past 10-20-30 years, should be called a racist and give up his career, I disagree with.

Two wrongs don't make a right.



With that said ..

His apology and then somewhat retraction is pretty weird. This shows he is not sorry or it really wasn't him in the picture (doubtful). This is what I would flag him on, not the initial picture.

JPhillips 02-03-2019 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 3230343)
I'm not aware of a Democrat who is worse than Tulsi Gabbard. I'm a staunchly anti-third party person, but a Gabbard-Trump election is probably what would break me.


You're my spirit animal.

Gabbard is possibly a worse option than Trump.

NobodyHere 02-03-2019 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3230326)
So I know I will be in the minority ...

Unless Northam has shown a pattern of racism, I would let this go. Does it excuse it? No, but those were different times, there was less sensitivity to these issues by whites then etc.

Now if it comes up Northam has done similar things or have been heard to say racist stuff over the past 30+ years, that's a different matter.


I tend to agree with this. I will add that 1984 wasn't all that long ago and I don't think putting yourself in blackface or KKK robes was something that would normally go in a yearbook. With that said I think this was done for the shock value than pure racism. I don't know Northam's heart.

I'm personally out of outrage at this moment an don't really care what happened 30 years ago unless like you said there's a pattern that continues to this day.

Also I've done some really stupid stuff in my day and I'm not going to stand on a pedestal condemning others for something that happened 30 years ago.

I'm surprised (though I shouldn't be) that liberal Hollywood also keeps hiring Mark Wahlberg considering what he did was far worse than a yearbook photo.

Drake 02-03-2019 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3230361)
I'm surprised (though I shouldn't be) that liberal Hollywood also keeps hiring Mark Wahlberg considering what he did was far worse than a yearbook photo.


I wouldn't say Deepwater Horizon was quite that bad.

Thomkal 02-03-2019 09:37 PM

So when Trump declares a national emergency over the Wall, everyone should retweet the photo of him playing golf with Jack Nicklaus and Tiger yesterday in Florida.

Radii 02-03-2019 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3230361)
I'm surprised (though I shouldn't be) that liberal Hollywood also keeps hiring Mark Wahlberg considering what he did was far worse than a yearbook photo.



If we've learned anything from the #metoo movement its that liberal hollywood is full of horrible people that have also played a huge part in normalizing a lot of truly terrible behavior. Not every politician is a racist, or colluding with foreign governments in shady ways, not every movie producer is a rapist, but people in powerful positions sometimes abuse that power in horrible ways, and if the people around them defend these things, its also awful and should be called out and everyone in these circles should be held accountable. This is regardless of political affiliation or whether they make good movies.

Don't let shitty people get away with being shitty.

stevew 02-04-2019 02:56 AM

Probably just me, but going thru the arrest and toss process for 21 Savage 1 week before the Grammys and 3 weeks before the Oscars is a questionable decision

JPhillips 02-04-2019 03:56 PM

Holy crap. The Lt. Gov of VA just agreed that he thinks Northam and his people are behind the sexual assault allegations that came out today. I guess Northam's plan is to burn everything to the ground.

albionmoonlight 02-04-2019 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3230473)
Holy crap. The Lt. Gov of VA just agreed that he thinks Northam and his people are behind the sexual assault allegations that came out today. I guess Northam's plan is to burn everything to the ground.


There's a disturbing amount of "if I can't be in charge of it, I'd rather destroy it" in elected officials today.

albionmoonlight 02-04-2019 04:00 PM

dola--caveat that I haven't been following any of this too closely, so it might be that the allegations against the Lt. Gov. are credible. No reason to to wait and see and investigate.

NobodyHere 02-05-2019 01:05 AM

Donald Trump inaugural committee subpoenaed by federal prosecutors

Brian Swartz 02-05-2019 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomkal
So when Trump declares a national emergency over the Wall, everyone should retweet the photo of him playing golf with Jack Nicklaus and Tiger yesterday in Florida.


Why? I don't get the relevance, seriously.

NobodyHere 02-05-2019 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz (Post 3230503)
Why? I don't get the relevance, seriously.


1) Bad optics for a president to be playing golf when there's a potential national emergency going on.

2) The hypocritical Trump was very critical about how much golf Obama played.

Brian Swartz 02-05-2019 01:26 AM

2) - Sure, but that has nothing do with the Wall. On 1), what can he do about what the Wall instead of playing golf? I mean, it's not as if Congress is offering to fund the wall if he'll just stay off the links more.

NobodyHere 02-05-2019 01:30 AM

He can go back to congress and prove what a masterful negotiator he is?

SackAttack 02-05-2019 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3230346)
There is truth in what you say re: different standards with whites. This is especially more so 30+ years ago but I do think its getting better, especially as the baby boom generation passes the baton.

If your argument is there are different standards and whites very often get the benefit of doubt. No doubt, I agree.

If you argument is there are different standards and that's why Northam who did this racist thing but has not shown a pattern in the past 10-20-30 years, should be called a racist and give up his career, I disagree with.


The bolded bit is where you're missing the point. If Northam had been a black man and been recorded 20 years ago "joking" about assaulting women, it wouldn't *matter* what the prevailing pattern of behavior in the years since was.

He'd be targeted for political destruction.

Because he's a white man, people are falling over themselves to excuse the behavior away as "it was a different time and he's not like that NOW so it's probably just youthful indiscretions" as though people don't, as they age, learn not to use the Outside Voice for some things.

Well, people not named Donald Trump do.

As you say, though, his response to this whole thing is super weird.

And that suggests to me there's more there than "youthful indiscretions." If that's all it was - he was young, dumb, and stupid and did a stupid, dumb thing because he was young, his rationalizing wouldn't be this contortionate.

Drake 02-05-2019 06:56 AM

I'd have different feelings about the "young and dumb" defense if it was a high school yearbook.

For some reason, I expect more maturity or a higher level of cognizance out of people in medical school. We don't generally give new doctors the benefit of a "young and dumb" defense if their negligence kills somebody. I realize that dressing up in blackface isn't a professional medical skill...but it does get at adult judgment.

I grew up in uncultured, redneck, casually racist rural Indiana for my entire young life and yet managed not to put on blackface for anything. So I'm a little baffled, admittedly, about 1) how such a circumstance arises, and 2) why anyone would want to do it if the circumstance did arise. Maybe we just didn't take our Michael Jackson contests seriously enough.

Kodos 02-05-2019 07:13 AM

Hooooo-hoooo! *grabs crotch*

Thomkal 02-05-2019 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz (Post 3230503)
Why? I don't get the relevance, seriously.



This is supposed to be a functioning democracy. Trump going to play golf instead of working day and night to get his national emergency fixed means one branch of govt is not functioning correctly.



Let's put this in a way-a real national emergency existed. Let's say that massive earthquake they have been predicting for the mid-west finally happens. Massive amount of death and destruction. Do you want your President to be playing golf with Jack and Tiger or working with Congress and federal agencies to help people as quickly and efficiently as possible?


He's using his Wall as just such a national emergency and then going to play golf.

JPhillips 02-05-2019 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodos (Post 3230520)
Hooooo-hoooo! *grabs crotch*


What is a cat-calling owl?

Ben E Lou 02-05-2019 01:04 PM

I finally got around to watching the Northam presser where he offered as evidence that he didn't do blackface in *that* photo the fact that he remembers doing blackface a different time.





That dummy was actually going to moonwalk if his wife hadn't stopped him. He was checking to see if he had room. What on EARTH???

RainMaker 02-05-2019 01:12 PM



miked 02-05-2019 01:13 PM

And they can just collect interest nearly tax-free or invest it with a lower tax rate than working. But I guess most should just learn to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

QuikSand 02-05-2019 01:18 PM

Your Guide to Tonight’s Trumpian Word Vomit - The Bulwark

Rick Wilson grants no quarter

Thomkal 02-05-2019 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand (Post 3230556)



And that's by a Republican strategist

RainMaker 02-05-2019 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miked (Post 3230555)
And they can just collect interest nearly tax-free or invest it with a lower tax rate than working. But I guess most should just learn to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.


Inheritance is the biggest form of welfare in this country.

whomario 02-05-2019 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz (Post 3230506)
2) - Sure, but that has nothing do with the Wall. On 1), what can he do about what the Wall instead of playing golf? I mean, it's not as if Congress is offering to fund the wall if he'll just stay off the links more.


He should be working to find ways to save you all from the bad, bad foreigners instead of saying "Nah, wall or nothing. No wall ? Guess i'll have the day off".

Either it's an emergency or it isn't. And if you say it is, you better treat it as one even if it means compromising a little or, you know, bring yourself to order some underling to educate you about alternative courses of action.

Brian Swartz 02-05-2019 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomkal
Let's put this in a way-a real national emergency existed. Let's say that massive earthquake they have been predicting for the mid-west finally happens. Massive amount of death and destruction. Do you want your President to be playing golf with Jack and Tiger or working with Congress and federal agencies to help people as quickly and efficiently as possible?


Again, what specifically can he do right now on the Wall though? He's communicated with Congress on what he thinks is needed. He's issued orders to the relevant federal agencies. I'm with you on the 'working night and day' stuff if there's actual stuff that can be done. But unless there's something practical on the Wall that he can do which he isn't doing, choosing instead to go play golf, then this is just another example of not being content with the umpteen bazillion actual things Trump is doing wrong, and inventing new ones that are spurious. In your example, after the president has done everything he can do vis a vis congress and federal agencies, I couldn't care less what he does with his time.

Thomkal 02-05-2019 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz (Post 3230561)
Again, what specifically can he do right now on the Wall though? He's communicated with Congress on what he thinks is needed. He's issued orders to the relevant federal agencies. I'm with you on the 'working night and day' stuff if there's actual stuff that can be done. But unless there's something practical on the Wall that he can do which he isn't doing, choosing instead to go play golf, then this is just another example of not being content with the umpteen bazillion actual things Trump is doing wrong, and inventing new ones that are spurious. In your example, after the president has done everything he can do vis a vis congress and federal agencies, I couldn't care less what he does with his time.



My point here was that if he goes national emergency on the Wall, he's now equating this with a real national emergency like I described. Where thousands of people are in imment danger of losing their life/property. No doubt there's some danger involved with the border, but mostly this is a crisis HE made up to be much more worse than it actually is. If he thinks the border is that much of a threat to America, he should be working non-stop to fix it with Congress, not taking a vacation in Florida to play golf.



If this was government working normally, I wouldn't be having a problem with him priortizing the Wall over most anything else, and then going to play golf after he worked to achieve it/try to achieve it. But him threatening a national emergency over something he largely created and then go and play golf is not govt working correctly

Radii 02-05-2019 03:24 PM

I'm with Brian on this. At a different level and from a different direction. But honestly, I've got so much of my anger wrapped up in the countless criminal enterprises our president, his campaign, his cabinet, his charity, and his inauguration committee seem to have committed that I just feel like comments about his golf game are a waste of time and a distraction.

Radii 02-05-2019 03:25 PM

dola, Trump declaring a national emergency over the wall is such a massive farce, that taking little extra digs about him playing golf, again, almost distract from how serious and significant and negligent his positions are.

albionmoonlight 02-05-2019 03:49 PM

I just passed a woman on the street dressed like Alexandria Ocasico-Cortez. I am pretty politically aware, but it would never occur to me to cosplay a state of the Union address. :-)

Brian Swartz 02-05-2019 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomkal
If he thinks the border is that much of a threat to America, he should be working non-stop to fix it with Congress, not taking a vacation in Florida to play golf.


My question is still the same one: doing what, specifically? What can he communicate/engage with Congress on vis a vis this that hasn't already done? What information/discussion does Congress need from him that didn't happen during the run-up to the 'shutdown', the shutdown itself, and the period which has followed it? We agree that the Wall isn't a good idea, but that's beside the point here. And they don't even want him involved right now:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy Blunt
The goal of this conference should be to do our best to get a bill that we think is something the president will sign when he looks at everything in it, but not to let him become one of the negotiators,


Ben E Lou 02-05-2019 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3188989)
Wouldn't the withholdings decrease in proportion to the new brackets? Just doing some incredibly rough math here, and it would seem noticeable if I'm working it out correctly. It sure looks like pretty much everyone in the lower-middle/middle/upper-middle brackets is going to see 3-4% more, and if you happen to fall in one of what appear to be some sweet spots here, significantly more than that. (A married couple whose income remains static in the 76-77K range from 2017 to 2018 drops from 25% to 12%????? Am I reading that correctly?)

I was reading this correctly, it seems. We weren’t in a sweet spot, but our rate dropped 6 points despite making a hair more. Our taxable income increased by $5600, but total taxes paid decreased by $9,300 after the credits were applied. I’d think we’re a fairly typical college-educated dual-income family of four in our age range.

On another note, I filed as early as I could this time because it was clear that we were getting a refund. E-filed a week ago today. Federal refund came to my bank account today. Is it normally that fast?

rjolley 02-05-2019 06:36 PM

Last year, ours came pretty quickly, within a week, I think.

Atocep 02-05-2019 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand (Post 3230556)


You just don't understand his genius.

Quote:

When I say something that you might think is a gaffe, it’s on purpose; it’s not a gaffe. When Biden says something dumb, it’s because he’s dumb".

Galaril 02-05-2019 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3230326)
So I know I will be in the minority ...

Unless Northam has shown a pattern of racism, I would let this go. Does it excuse it? No, but those were different times, there was less sensitivity to these issues by whites then etc.

Now if it comes up Northam has done similar things or have been heard to say racist stuff over the past 30+ years, that's a different matter.


:banghead:

PilotMan 02-05-2019 09:27 PM

My God he's a terrible speaker on teleprompter.

digamma 02-06-2019 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3230576)
I was reading this correctly, it seems. We weren’t in a sweet spot, but our rate dropped 6 points despite making a hair more. Our taxable income increased by $5600, but total taxes paid decreased by $9,300 after the credits were applied. I’d think we’re a fairly typical college-educated dual-income family of four in our age range.

On another note, I filed as early as I could this time because it was clear that we were getting a refund. E-filed a week ago today. Federal refund came to my bank account today. Is it normally that fast?


I'd maybe qualify that also by living in a low state income and property tax state. The blue state tax is real.

Ben E Lou 02-06-2019 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digamma (Post 3230602)
I'd maybe qualify that also by living in a low state income and property tax state. The blue state tax is real.

Because property taxes aren't deductible? (State income taxes either?) Or is there another hit that I'm missing?

stevew 02-06-2019 04:25 AM

State local and property taxes are capped at a 10000 deduction is what I assume he’s referring to?

digamma 02-06-2019 04:37 AM

Correct. In Minneapolis, the median married home owner with median income level is going to exceed that deduction. I'm guessing you see that multiplied in places like NY and SF where property values and incomes are higher.

Ben E Lou 02-06-2019 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew (Post 3230605)
State local and property taxes are capped at a 10000 deduction is what I assume he’s referring to?

Ahhh...I see that now on my return. Actually, that did affect us. Our state/local was right at 10K, so we lost all deduction on real estate/personal property. The child tax credit more than made up for that, though. Referencing a discussion about this from last year, that's a pure *credit*, not a deduction, thus a $4K reduction to our tax bill right off the top, in other words. Looking over my return in more detail, here are the items that stand out...
  • We lost 4.5K in deductions for state/local/property
  • Our income tax on the whole was lower because of being in a lower percentage bracket in the new system.
  • We gained a new $4K credit for having two children.
So basically the more kids you have the better this is, but that can be at least partially offset by higher state/local/property taxers in one's locale. I have no idea how NC compares to the rest of the country on this, but for us the child tax credit more than made up for the lost deduction amount.

Drake 02-06-2019 06:15 AM

I did my taxes last night (Indiana) with similar results to yours, Ben.

I have super-low property taxes and a relatively small mortgage, so they've never really factored into my tax formula. As pretty much a direct result, I've just taken the standard deduction for the last 10 years. So, between the increased standard deduction, the child tax credit, and the lower rate, I netted about $800 more on my return this year than last with no substantial changes. My witholding was also down about $600 from the previous year.

It looks like tax reform put about back $1500 into my pocket for 2018.

digamma 02-06-2019 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digamma (Post 3228902)
I'm not sure. That would require people to care about the State of the Union Address.


Going to stand by this take.

albionmoonlight 02-06-2019 06:57 AM

I didn't watch the speech or any of the reactions (as is my custom). I logged in this morning to process the feedback, and it appears that the SOTU and the response and the Bernie response were all . . . normal? That's the twist I didn't see coming.

JPhillips 02-06-2019 08:02 AM

From NY Magazine:

Quote:

Mick Mulvaney’s progression from debt-hysteric, government-shutting Freedom Caucus insurgent to debt-increasing budget director: a play in five short acts.

1. “The only place it would make sense to borrow money to solve a debt crisis is Washington, D.C. You wouldn’t do it, I wouldn’t do it.” —Mick Mulvaney, 2011.

2. “You can’t just like spending that your party wants and dislike spending that the other party wants.” —Mick Mulvaney, November 2016.

3. “Is Trump going to get a little deference [on deficits] because he’s in the same party? Perhaps.” —Mulvaney, also November 2016.

4. “Right now we are nearly $20 trillion in debt, but Mick is a very high-energy leader with deep convictions for how to responsibly manage our nation’s finances and save our country from drowning in red ink.” —President Trump, as quoted in the Washington Post, “Trump names Rep. Mick Mulvaney, a fiscal hawk, to head budget office,” December 2016.

5. “When asked if the deficit will be mentioned in #SOTU speech, chief of staff Mulvaney said “nobody cares,” per attendee.”

albionmoonlight 02-06-2019 10:38 AM

As of right now

Va Gov--blackface scandal

Va Lt. Gov--Sex scandal

Va Atty Gen--probable blackface scandal

I'm not sure how far down the Va. line of succession goes, but we might end up with the guy who mans the butter churn in Colonial Williamsburg as governor because he's the only public person in the state who hasn't appeared in blackface or sexually harassed a staffer.

albionmoonlight 02-06-2019 11:31 AM

Apparently the guy in line after those three is the GOP Speaker of the House. So it will be interesting to see how many Dems who were loudly calling for the Gov to resign suddenly get quiet now that that choice might hurt the party.

bronconick 02-06-2019 12:31 PM

Probably why the Governor dug in his heels. " You ****ers did it too!"

larrymcg421 02-06-2019 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight (Post 3230631)
Apparently the guy in line after those three is the GOP Speaker of the House. So it will be interesting to see how many Dems who were loudly calling for the Gov to resign suddenly get quiet now that that choice might hurt the party.


If Northam resigns, then Fairfax takes charge. He could then appoint a Lt. Gov, who would take charge if Fairfax resigned. That's their way of avoiding the speaker taking over.

However, I doubt Fairfax will resign unless there is a 2nd accusation that comes out or if it gets reported/verified by a less partisan source.

Thomkal 02-06-2019 02:32 PM

House Intelligence Committee votes to release transcripts to Mueller. They include Donald Trump Jr, Hope Hicks, Jared Kushner, Corey Lewandowski and others.



House Intel panel votes to release Russia interview transcripts to Mueller | TheHill

stevew 02-06-2019 04:27 PM

Sounds like all Fairfax did was probably ghost someone. He probably used his position at the time so it’s not like he’s a great guy.

RainMaker 02-06-2019 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digamma (Post 3230602)
I'd maybe qualify that also by living in a low state income and property tax state. The blue state tax is real.


There's a reason Republicans got destroyed in the suburbs of bigger states (New York, Illinois, California). The Republican reps voted to increase taxes on their own constituents.

CU Tiger 02-06-2019 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou (Post 3230607)
Ahhh...I see that now on my return. Actually, that did affect us. Our state/local was right at 10K, so we lost all deduction on real estate/personal property. The child tax credit more than made up for that, though. Referencing a discussion about this from last year, that's a pure *credit*, not a deduction, thus a $4K reduction to our tax bill right off the top, in other words. Looking over my return in more detail, here are the items that stand out...
  • We lost 4.5K in deductions for state/local/property
  • Our income tax on the whole was lower because of being in a lower percentage bracket in the new system.
  • We gained a new $4K credit for having two children.
So basically the more kids you have the better this is, but that can be at least partially offset by higher state/local/property taxers in one's locale. I have no idea how NC compares to the rest of the country on this, but for us the child tax credit more than made up for the lost deduction amount.



I would be ok, except for losing the business mileage deduction. That ruined me.

cuervo72 02-06-2019 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CU Tiger (Post 3230669)
I would be ok, except for losing the business mileage deduction. That ruined me.


Woman from HS on FB shared her SO's experience (also from HS). Union welder, lost some $18k in deductions (including union dues). Said he has never owed before but owes $4k this year.

Haven't checked out ours yet. They are really simple (basically just W2s and mortgage/property deductions) but I'm always afraid of finding out the total.

cuervo72 02-06-2019 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand (Post 3230556)


Quote:

crawling the walls like Ann Coulter on too many diet pills

Now THAT is some imagery.

Marc Vaughan 02-06-2019 06:55 PM

From what I can ascertain my rebate will be lower, but still be a rebate ... not wholly surprised and I expect a fair few people will be 'surprised' that their tax cut is actually for them a penalty because they used to claim 'x' and can't any more ...

JPhillips 02-06-2019 06:59 PM

Looks like I'll get about half the rebate I normally get. There's a little extra income, but most of it is losing deductibles related to the house.

Vince, Pt. II 02-06-2019 07:40 PM

We were a net even on income, down about 40% on our return, but we also had less withheld throughout the year. I need to dig back in to figure out what the actual net change was.

CU Tiger 02-06-2019 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuervo72 (Post 3230671)
Woman from HS on FB shared her SO's experience (also from HS). Union welder, lost some $18k in deductions (including union dues). Said he has never owed before but owes $4k this year.

Haven't checked out ours yet. They are really simple (basically just W2s and mortgage/property deductions) but I'm always afraid of finding out the total.



I drove 51,000 miles for work last year.
At ~.50 mile it adds up to a bunch.


But Im getting my re-done by a 2nd opinion. My CPA Ive used forever retired last year. New guy, maybe great but he says no mileage deduction this year, but Im reading differently online.


2nd opinion for Friday

stevew 02-06-2019 09:53 PM

85000 miles. I lost money

Chief Rum 02-07-2019 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew (Post 3230691)
85000 miles. I lost money


You drove 85000 miles for work?

Chief Rum 02-07-2019 02:53 AM

I read an article today that said that the new tax bill last year made tax cuts for a majority of U.S. filers, but people are ending up with smaller refunds and even paying when they never did before because the bill also changed the calculations on how witholding is done on payroll checks.

Basically, taxes are lower but witholding as a percentage was even lower than that, and as a result, a lot more people are seeing a drop in their returns.

I'm getting my taxes done in a couple weeks. Kinda worried what I will find out.

Edward64 02-07-2019 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 3230700)
You drove 85000 miles for work?


That's a ton of miles. What type of work do you do if you don't me asking?

DeToxRox 02-07-2019 09:18 AM

Haven’t posted in a while, but I still lurk. Figured I would chime in with my experience.

My accountant e-filed for my wife and I last night. We just have the standard deductions (no kids either). Our household income went up about 12k in 2018. All that said, our refund was only a few hundred less than in 2018.

QuikSand 02-07-2019 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 3230701)
I read an article today that said that the new tax bill last year made tax cuts for a majority of U.S. filers, but people are ending up with smaller refunds and even paying when they never did before because the bill also changed the calculations on how witholding is done on payroll checks.

Basically, taxes are lower but witholding as a percentage was even lower than that, and as a result, a lot more people are seeing a drop in their returns.


So much of politics, political opinion, and policy ends up being guided by the tiny share of complicated issues that people can actually absorb and understand. It's positively alarming.

This issue shapes up that way. A person with identical tax-relevant circumstances in 2017 and 2018 might end up paying lower total taxes, getting a lower year-end refund (because withholding was basically adjusted correctly), and could end up getting pissed off at... well, probably whomever he was already pissed off at, for other reasons, since that's how politics works.


Personally, I'm going to be a victim of the limits on state and local tax deductibility and personal exemptions, which I fully expect to wipe out just about any rate-reduction benefit for my (very complicated) return. And in my state, with a pretty broad income tax, we might get clipped for extra state and county income taxes by the feds' decision to push most taxpayers to standard deductions. Many families in this state surely will, even if not mine.

(Incidentally, I'm not laying a claim that my family needed or deserved a tax cut. Our country has a pretty staggering debt accumulated and still growing, and it seems to me that relatively stable to good times in the economy are the times for us to collectively gain ground in that regard)

albionmoonlight 02-07-2019 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand (Post 3230715)
So much of politics, political opinion, and policy ends up being guided by the tiny share of complicated issues that people can actually absorb and understand. It's positively alarming.


See, e.g., how often gas prices come up in elections.

JPhillips 02-07-2019 10:48 AM

It's amazing to me that the National Prayer Breakfast is still a thing now that we know that Russian intelligence basically used it as speed dating for operatives and the GOP establishment.

albionmoonlight 02-07-2019 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 3230720)
It's amazing to me that the National Prayer Breakfast is still a thing now that we know that Russian intelligence basically used it as speed dating for operatives and the GOP establishment.


Why do you hate Jesus, JPhillips?

Thomkal 02-07-2019 12:32 PM

Nominee for Attorney General passes committee confirmation vote along party lines to move on to Confirmation vote next week.


Acting AG Whitaker scheduled to testify before House Judicary tomorrow has said today he is still willing to testify if Chairman Nadler does not subpoena him today or tomorrow. Committee along party lines again votes to have a subpoena ready if Whitaker does not testify or invokes executive priviledge

Thomkal 02-07-2019 12:41 PM

So John McCain's widow Cindy who is the co-chair of Arizona's Human Trafficking Council, thought she spotted a case of trafficking taking place at the Phoenix airport because she spotted a woman with a child of a different ethnicty. She went to the police about and claimed she had just stopped the crime. She didn't-nothing was wrong after police investigated:


Attention Required! | Cloudflare

Edward64 02-07-2019 01:36 PM

Where we stand now on the budget deal. There's hope for a compromise with Congress.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/07/polit...ons/index.html
Quote:

The backstop: As is often the case, when deadlines get close, lawmakers start talking about a short-term, one- or two-week stop-gap funding bill. Democrats have floated the idea, and several Senate Republicans have said it may be necessary as a backstop while talks continue.

Notably, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell told a closed-door meeting of GOP committee chairs on Wednesday he did not think a stop-gap bill was a good idea, according to one participant -- and there's real question as to whether the president would even sign one. The message was negotiators need to reach a deal -- and get it done now.

The sticking points:

Border barriers -- the topline funding number, the location and the actual structure chosen for the barriers are still under discussion. Note that Democrats have clearly moved off their position of no money for border barriers. Republicans accept $5.7 billion is a non-starter. It's not a question of if there will be barriers. The key now, per multiple sources involved is narrowing the gap on number, location and type of barrier.

Detention beds -- Democrats, particularly in the House, are deeply opposed to increased funding for detention facilities to house detained undocumented immigrants. Republicans consider the funding increases in this area a must. This is a significant sticking point that has flown under the radar to some degree amid the wall fight.

Personnel -- Democrats proposed hiring 1,000 new customs agents, but had restrictions on increasing other personnel on the border. Republicans want a significant increase in border patrol and ICE personnel. This is not a minor issue -- a large chunk of the Democratic caucus is sharply opposed to increased personnel (the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, in a letter to conferees Wednesday, characterized it as "Trump's deportation force" and urged negotiators not to increase any funding.)

An interesting piece of this is the spending parameters the negotiators are working under -- technically the level for the DHS measure is about $49 billion. Republicans, in past proposals, have sought to get around those caps via emergency funding to help finance the President's priorities. There's some dispute over whether that option is on the table here, according to people involved, but more broadly it's important to note that it's not like there's unlimited funds to just plunge into the bill.


Edward64 02-07-2019 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomkal (Post 3230735)
So John McCain's widow Cindy who is the co-chair of Arizona's Human Trafficking Council, thought she spotted a case of trafficking taking place at the Phoenix airport because she spotted a woman with a child of a different ethnicty. She went to the police about and claimed she had just stopped the crime. She didn't-nothing was wrong after police investigated:


Attention Required! | Cloudflare


Pretty embarrassing for her. Not sure what she saw that was suspicious (give her the benefit of doubt, hope it wasn't just skin color) but to claim she was right at that time is troubling. The investigators either gave her the wrong info or she just jumped to conclusions she shouldn't have.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.