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Edward64 01-14-2019 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3228712)
I am flabbergasted that 41% of people think a wall is consistent with American values. Did they all drop out of school in the second grade?


Best I can say is The Times They Are A Changin'

I certainly don't dispute majority of Americans are against the wall however lets not so easily dismiss the 40-43% minority that do favor a wall of some sort. That's a pretty darn large minority.

Interestingly #28 shows support for wall increasing from 33 to 43 and oppose decrease from 64 to 55.

Interesting survey. Lots of data. Thanks for sharing.

Mota 01-14-2019 07:55 PM

Just for laughs I listened to SiriusXM Patriot channel which is the conservative politics channel. It was downright frightening, I had no idea that people like that existed in the real world.

People blaming the democrats for the shutdown, absolutely. Even though it is Trump's shutdown. I don't know how they could be passionate enough to call into a radio show, yet listen so little about the world around them.

Also every commercial during the show is debt relief.

NobodyHere 01-14-2019 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3228712)
I am flabbergasted that 41% of people think a wall is consistent with American values. Did they all drop out of school in the second grade?


This country has always had a contingent that was against immigration, especially against illegal immigration. Irish, Asians, Mexicans, you name it.

What did you learn in American history after the 2nd grade that was so different?

Warhammer 01-14-2019 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3228712)
I am flabbergasted that 41% of people think a wall is consistent with American values. Did they all drop out of school in the second grade?


We had two great big blue walls for the majority of our existence, called the Pacific and Atlantic Ocean. Most people that come into the country across these oceans are vetted at either the port or the airport.

If I take a major freeway and cross into Canada or Mexico, there is someone at that border crossing that asks for ID, and vets me. The same goes for crossing back into the country.

I am not going to put words in the mouth of everyone that supports a wall, my view is this:

1). A wall is not going to prevent entry to the country, it is a deterrent to those coming in illegally.

2). It should be designed to be backed up by other surveillane mechanisms, which will allow border patrols to react in a reasonable amount of time to those crossing illegally.

3). I believe it is important to protect your borders. It sets up what to expect in other areas of society. If your first experience with US law enforcement is flouting immigration laws, how many other laws are you willing to flout?

4). It allows us a means of documenting who is here. This is done for any number of reasons from taxes to safety.

That said, I do not believe the great menace is the Hispanic population in Central America. I think it is the ease in which terrorists and other foreign agents can enter the country. Regarding immigration, I want us to pick a set of laws and enforce them. We already do not enforce the laws on the books for immigration (otherwise we would have some sort of border security).

I could care less about what the actual numbers are. If we want to open the borders, and decide that as a nation. Let’s go ahead and do it. However, I am not in favor of offering any sort of safety net to immigrants. There are a couple of reasons for this. First, the government is here for US citizens, not for foreigners. If someone wants to join the club, you are not coming in to be a parasite. You will be symbionts and provide benefit to the citizens of the nation. Second, there are other avenues for assistance that do not require the federal government to be involved. Charities and church groups can provide for the less fortunate.

Now, if we choose to limit who comes in, then WE get to decide who we want to let in. Other nations have rules, we can too. Many times, nations prefer workers with certain skill sets and have incentives or allow higher numbers of these workers to come into the country. There is no reason why we cannot have these same rules in place. It also allows a manageable number of immigrants to come in and reasonably assimilate into the country.

In either case of opening up immigration or having it limited, neither alternative is in opposition to having secure borders.

Thomkal 01-14-2019 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomkal (Post 3228714)
Looks like even the Republicans are sick of Steve King of Iowa-he's not been appointed to any committees-unanimously. Wonder if Nancy Pelosi will Censure him now to drive the final nail in the coffin.



Edit: Got fooled by a tweet-oh they still removed him from committees-was just fooled by a joke about it.

Thomkal 01-14-2019 08:27 PM

Rand Paul, one of the biggest critics of socialized medicine, will travel to Canada, where they have socialized medicine to have hernia surgery. This is a follow up to the fight he had with his neighbor.



Rand Paul neighbor attack: Senator to have surgery in Canada


And no this is not a joke.

NobodyHere 01-14-2019 08:30 PM

He's going to a privately owned clinic that specializes in the surgery he needs done. Not sure what the big deal is.

Edward64 01-14-2019 08:35 PM

Heard this on NPR and it brought up something re: emergency power declaration and the precedence that I didn't think about.

Trump Still Considering National Emergency Declaration As Shutdown Negotiations Continue : NPR
Quote:

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Do we know where he's landed on declaring a state of emergency? You're describing this sort of back and forth. But do we know where his head's at?

LIASSON: It seems that he's saying, I will do it if I can't get a deal. But the waffling around this is happening because some of his advisers say it's not a good idea. It's going to be tied up in the courts. The Republicans in Congress are split on this. Some Republicans say it would usurp Congress's power of the purse. Others say it's a terrible precedent because a future Democratic president could declare a state of emergency around gun safety or health care or climate change.

But other Republicans on the Hill privately would be thankful for the president to take this whole issue off their laps because if he does declare a state of emergency, he would, presumably, have to open the government.

I can see a Democratic President taking "gun safety" baby steps like banning bump stocks (why in the world did it take so long?). Slippery slope for sure.

Atocep 01-14-2019 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3228728)
Heard this on NPR and it brought up something re: emergency power declaration and the precedence that I didn't think about.

Trump Still Considering National Emergency Declaration As Shutdown Negotiations Continue : NPR


I can see a Democratic President taking "gun safety" baby steps like banning bump stocks (why in the world did it take so long?). Slippery slope for sure.


That's why this emergency declaration thing needs to be shot down. If it's not then we've created a defacto monarchy and need to stop pretending we have a democracy.

Lathum 01-14-2019 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3228718)
This country has always had a contingent that was against immigration, especially against illegal immigration. Irish, Asians, Mexicans, you name it.

What did you learn in American history after the 2nd grade that was so different?


True but not in those numbers. And that was a very different time.

I have a BA in history from university of Washington. One of the best schools in the country. Where is yours from?

NobodyHere 01-14-2019 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3228733)
I have a BA in history from university of Washington. One of the best schools in the country. Where is yours from?


Sounds like you should ask for a refund.

PilotMan 01-14-2019 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3228727)
He's going to a privately owned clinic that specializes in the surgery he needs done. Not sure what the big deal is.



Private clinic that gets a majority of it's money from government of Ontario.


Really, if this was a D, Fox news would be all over them for either being too good for good ol' US of A medicine, or unpatriotic for not supporting the country. Either way it would be a load of crap, so there's part of that here too. It's a minor story that would have been blown out of proportion. It's an ironic story. Someone should probably say something like, maybe he can just stay there and enjoy his government sponsored medicine and stay the hell out of 'merica!

Edward64 01-14-2019 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3228733)
I have a BA in history from university of Washington. One of the best schools in the country. Where is yours from?


Oh, this is going to be good. :popcorn:

Edward64 01-14-2019 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3228735)
Sounds like you should ask for a refund.


Touche

Lathum 01-14-2019 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3228737)
Oh, this is going to be good. :popcorn:


Not really. I have no interest in entertaining an internet tough guy. It is why I stopped posting here for 3 and a half years.

PilotMan 01-14-2019 09:25 PM

Really?


Quote:

Clemson championship team, the national championship team, will be coming tonight and it’ll be exciting. Very great team, unbelievable team. They’ll be coming tonight. And I think we’re going to serve McDonald’s, Wendy’s, Burger Kings with some pizza. I really mean it. It will be interesting. And I would think that’s their favorite food. So we’ll see what happens. But they’re coming tonight, the national champions, subject to the weather.


Yes Really.

Quote:

Trump was serious. A White House spokesperson confirmed to CNN that Trump is actually paying for the food for the 76 Clemson players (plus coaches and other administration) making the trip to Washington. Yes, Trump is so cheap he’s only buying these kids fast food.

Edward64 01-14-2019 09:32 PM

Nothing wrong with good old American food. I did catch a clip of it on TV tonight.

(And yes, American pizza has definitely exceeded its origins)


To be honest, I really don't think its because Trump is cheap.

NobodyHere 01-14-2019 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotMan (Post 3228742)
Really?




Yes Really.


Just to play a little devil's advocate here, what should Trump have served to his guests here out of own pockets?

Young Drachma 01-14-2019 09:39 PM

on the whole out of pocket thing, the President always pays for food in the White House regardless. I suspect in this instance since it's a state event, we pay for it, but it's no grand gesture of charity that "he's paying" since all Presidents pay for their own food, that's literally how it works.

I suspect past events like this, they didn't host a dinner for them at all. IIRC past events have been during the day, they come in for the photo op and then they leave. Maybe there's snacks or whatever, so this might be a bit of freelance photo op-ing, but way to turn a pedestrian event into a story because of burgergate.

Edward64 01-14-2019 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3228741)
Not really. I have no interest in entertaining an internet tough guy. It is why I stopped posting here for 3 and a half years.


To be fair, I did take slight offense at your presumption my (and 40-43% others) support of the wall was not aligned with American values.

Edward64 01-14-2019 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3228745)
Just to play a little devil's advocate here, what should Trump have served to his guests here out of own pockets?


Five Guys, Red Robin, Taco Mac - they all have better burgers. For Pizza, for sure Mellow Mushroom.

Thomkal 01-14-2019 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3228727)
He's going to a privately owned clinic that specializes in the surgery he needs done. Not sure what the big deal is.



Edit: What Pilot Man said

PilotMan 01-14-2019 09:52 PM

I thought it was more heinous that his impression of what college athletes like to eat was totally fast food, burgers and pizzas. I'd have to say, going to the WH to eat fast food would probably diminish the trip for me. I'd rather not have had anthing at all. I mean, I can eat that whenever I want, why make something like going to the WH that pedestrian?

Edward64 01-14-2019 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomkal (Post 3228750)
Some Canadians posted in the tweet I read about this-the clinic is not private owned


Here's the wiki. Not sure if it absolutely answers the question but it does read like its a private hospital.

If I could afford it, I would go to the best also. However, I do think there is a little bit of hypocrisy here but not as much as the press would make it out to be.

Shouldice Hernia Centre - Wikipedia
Quote:

History
Shouldice was founded in 1945 by Dr. Earle Shouldice.[1][2] While private hospitals are not allowed under Ontario's Private Hospitals Act,[2] Shouldice is one of seven private hospitals in the province grandfathered under the Act.[2] The hospital has been continuously family run from its inception.

Work
Shouldice works solely on hernia repair.[1] It uses a natural tissue, tension free, technique developed during World War II by Dr. Shouldice. Ten full-time surgeons perform over 7500 hemiorrhapies each year.[citation needed]

Everything in the hospital is designed toward hernia repair.[1] Shouldice's rooms do not have telephones or televisions, which it says is to encourage patients to walk around while recovering.[1] The hospital is laid out like a "country club."[3] According to the hospital, it has the lowest rate of complications and recurrences of hernias in the world.[2] The success of its method has been cited to the fact that Shouldice surgeons solely do hernia operations.[4]

thesloppy 01-14-2019 10:04 PM

The only thing worse than McDonald's and Wendy's is McDonald's and Wendy's that has been sitting out for hours. I'm guessing these guys have trainers that have literally spent years telling these kids not to eat these exact foods.

JPhillips 01-14-2019 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3228745)
Just to play a little devil's advocate here, what should Trump have served to his guests here out of own pockets?


You give the WH staff a budget and they work with the chefs to create a menu.

Like every other dinner at the WH.

Fidatelo 01-14-2019 10:31 PM

Burgergate is why Trump is a madman genius. You guys are discussing the menu he should serve some kids instead of, I don't know, whether he's a traitorous dictator. Plus he probably got sponsored by McDonald's and Wendy's to mention they were providing the food. He's probably getting paid to host that shindig.

Camacho 2020

PilotMan 01-14-2019 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidatelo (Post 3228758)
You guys are discussing the menu he should serve some kids instead of, I don't know, whether he's a traitorous dictator.



Hmm, pretty sure something like this has been covered at least once in the last 723 days. Once or maybe 723 times, give or take a few.

bronconick 01-14-2019 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3228693)
I agree. There will be some hardcore Hillary supporters that would stick with her and come up with excuses/rationalizations but it wouldn't be as much as Trump, many would see the light and drop her IMO.

If Hillary did all that Trump did, said all that Trump said, was accused of what Trump has been accused off, there is no doubt both the Dem and GOP House and Senate would impeach her.

My explanation is because those hardcore Democrats can find other viable alternatives whereas Trump supporters really don't have an alternative.

With that said -
  • I'm not convinced that Trump himself "colluded" with Russia to steal the election. Sure there are stuff that can be interpreted that way but no smoking gun with him holding it
  • I'm more interesting in his financial dealings that may be illegal. Juicy as those details may be, doubt that will get him impeached

Bottom line -

Like it or not, we're stuck with Trump for the next 2 years at least (and I am glad the Dems own the House to bring more balance).


His abuse of the Emoluments Clause in the Constitution should have led to his impeachment after he refused to properly divest of his businesses. That would have had President Pence by mid summer 2017.

stevew 01-15-2019 12:04 AM

Eh if he wants to postmates in a bunch of food, more power to him.

Izulde 01-15-2019 12:08 AM

I read somewhere ( can't remember where) that the food was actually cold by the time the players got to eat. Cold fast food is gross.

Lathum 01-15-2019 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3228748)
To be fair, I did take slight offense at your presumption my (and 40-43% others) support of the wall was not aligned with American values.


Statue of Liberty, land of the free, Ellis island, land of opportunity.....


Quote:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.


Guess that doesn't mean what it used to. Yet the people for the wall claim to be the true patriots.

Edward64 01-15-2019 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum (Post 3228768)
Statue of Liberty, land of the free, Ellis island, land of opportunity.....

Guess that doesn't mean what it used to. Yet the people for the wall claim to be the true patriots.


A little truth to what you say but I think the US is still doing pretty well.

Key findings about U.S. immigrants | Pew Research Center
Quote:

The United States has more immigrants than any other country in the world. Today, more than 40 million people living in the U.S. were born in another country, accounting for about one-fifth of the world’s migrants in 2016. The population of immigrants is also very diverse, with just about every country in the world represented among U.S. immigrants.

Before we begin debate on this, I assume this is the summation of your core POV re: American values?

digamma 01-15-2019 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3228749)
Five Guys, Red Robin, Taco Mac - they all have better burgers. For Pizza, for sure Mellow Mushroom.


You serious, Clark?

Ben E Lou 01-15-2019 07:15 AM

The best words.


Kodos 01-15-2019 07:57 AM

Mmmmm. Hamberders.

JPhillips 01-15-2019 08:41 AM

Everything's a con.

Quote:

Trump to media yesterday: "We have 300 hamburgers"
Trump to Clemson yesterday: "I go out and send for about 1,000 hamburgers"
Trump this morning: "I served them massive amounts of Fast Food (I paid), over 1000 hamberders"

QuikSand 01-15-2019 08:47 AM

It's hamberders all the way down

PilotMan 01-15-2019 08:49 AM

One of my biggest issues with him is his need run his mouth. Like in this situation, why does he need to tell everyone that he's paying for all the food?

Furthermore, if I'm a billionaire, and I'm the president, and I'm paying? I'm hiring a crew and we're doing this the right way. Fast food makes him look cheap, no question.

SackAttack 01-15-2019 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NobodyHere (Post 3228718)
This country has always had a contingent that was against immigration, especially against illegal immigration. Irish, Asians, Mexicans, you name it.

What did you learn in American history after the 2nd grade that was so different?


No "especially" about it. "Illegal" immigration became a cause celèbre among the American right in the 1990s.

The rest of that statement is true, for values of true, though. Immigration, for the entire history of this country, has been a case of "I got mine, you can fuck off" on the far right. In some cases, it was explicitly about whiteness (the entire debate over whether Asians were capable of citizenry, or just pawns of the Chinese and Japanese emperors at the turn of the 20th century, the equivocation of Irish with blacks, as examples).

In other cases, it was about barring the "wrong" kind of Europeans (the quota shenanigans putting a national thumb on the scale to favor English and German immigration over, say, Italian).

But in all of those cases, there was very little concern over whether immigrants were coming here legally, and greater concern over whether they should be allowed to come at all.

Not so different, actually, from how Trump and his advisors began squalling about "illegal immigration" and then floating plans for locking down "legal" immigration, also. Because "illegal" is largely a word used to rile conservatives and right-leaning independents against the community of immigrants as a whole. Once you prime the pump to get people thinking that immigrant = bad, it becomes easier, politically, to propose things comparable to the Immigration Acts of 1917 and 1924, updated for the good ol' 21st century.

molson 01-15-2019 09:10 AM

Do we know what kind of toiler paper the players had access to? Was it at least double ply?

Did they get regular folding chairs, those folding chairs with the padding on them, or was it more like when of those wooden fold-up chairs you can rent at festivals and outdoor plays sometimes?

CU Tiger 01-15-2019 10:49 AM

Got a text last night from a friend that said

"From Filet Mignon in the field house to Mickey D's in the White House"...

albionmoonlight 01-15-2019 12:57 PM

Should have been Popeyes

stevew 01-15-2019 01:18 PM

I dont think this President could serve fried chicken to minorities without Twitter melting down.

Edward64 01-15-2019 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew (Post 3228812)
I dont think this President could serve fried chicken to minorities without Twitter melting down.


Wonder if he thought of that or just lucked out.

stevew 01-15-2019 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3228813)
Wonder if he thought of that or just lucked out.

I hope to god someone threw their body in front of the Popeye's van pulling up

stevew 01-15-2019 02:35 PM

McDonald's talked about rolling out the Hamberderer cause a petty Hamburgler is not edgy enough

JPhillips 01-15-2019 05:50 PM

Testimony in the El Chapo trial today revealed that El Chapo had paid past Mexican President Nieto a 100 million dollar bribe.

I think we know the starting point to get Trump to reopen the government.

kingfc22 01-16-2019 10:54 AM

My gut says Pelosi's move re: State of the Union address will backfire and will be the beginning of a switch in public opinion leading to the Dems caving on the wall to re-open the government.

digamma 01-16-2019 10:57 AM

I'm not sure. That would require people to care about the State of the Union Address.

Thomkal 01-16-2019 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingfc22 (Post 3228900)
My gut says Pelosi's move re: State of the Union address will backfire and will be the beginning of a switch in public opinion leading to the Dems caving on the wall to re-open the government.



I just can't see the Dems ever agreeing to the Wall, it would mean Trump wins and can do what he wants without worrying about Congress approval. I think McConnell is the one with the pressure point on him since he won't even allow a vote on things the Senate has already spproved 100-0.

albionmoonlight 01-16-2019 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingfc22 (Post 3228900)
My gut says Pelosi's move re: State of the Union address will backfire and will be the beginning of a switch in public opinion leading to the Dems caving on the wall to re-open the government.


Why?

ISiddiqui 01-16-2019 11:03 AM

And I think most people would be like, yeah, why are we having a State of the Union address when the government is shutdown? Probably Trump being on national TV a week ago spent any political capital he may have had in railing against this move against the State of the Union (you want to disrupt my TV shows TWICE in one month?!)

albionmoonlight 01-16-2019 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomkal (Post 3228905)
I just can't see the Dems ever agreeing to the Wall, it would mean Trump wins and can do what he wants without worrying about Congress approval. I think McConnell is the one with the pressure point on him since he won't even allow a vote on things the Senate has already spproved 100-0.


Yeah. I think that the real pressure here is McConnell weighing the fact that he's up for re-election in Kentucky on the one hand and GOP senators from moderate states wanting this to end on the other side.

Relatedly, which GOP politician since Reagan has done more for conservatism than McConnell? He kept Garland off the court. He kept Trump/Russia out of the news before the election. He kept his caucus united against Obama.

The fact that he has to worry about shoring up GOP support in Kentucky is insane to me. Who the fuck do Kentucky conservatives think they can get who will do better for them?

kingfc22 01-16-2019 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight (Post 3228906)
Why?


I can see this getting played up as "see the Dems are just against us, they don't want to get to norms, etc" and those same people ignoring what has happened for the past number of years by the Republicans.

Again, just a gut feeling, seeing how the Dems always seem to trip over themselves instead of just holding steady and not bringing "negative" attention onto themselves and off of Trump.

albionmoonlight 01-16-2019 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingfc22 (Post 3228910)
Again, just a gut feeling, seeing how the Dems always seem to trip over themselves instead of just holding steady and not bringing "negative" attention onto themselves and off of Trump.


Betting on the Dems to step on a rake and lose the political upper hand is certainly consistent with recent history.

PilotMan 01-16-2019 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight (Post 3228908)
Yeah. I think that the real pressure here is McConnell weighing the fact that he's up for re-election in Kentucky on the one hand and GOP senators from moderate states wanting this to end on the other side.

Relatedly, which GOP politician since Reagan has done more for conservatism than McConnell? He kept Garland off the court. He kept Trump/Russia out of the news before the election. He kept his caucus united against Obama.

The fact that he has to worry about shoring up GOP support in Kentucky is insane to me. Who the fuck do Kentucky conservatives think they can get who will do better for them?



IMO, living here, he's in no danger, at all, sadly.

kingfc22 01-16-2019 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight (Post 3228911)
Betting on the Dems to step on a rake and lose the political upper hand is certainly consistent with recent history.


Exactly. Just seems like a move that they didn't need to make.

bronconick 01-16-2019 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomkal (Post 3228905)
I just can't see the Dems ever agreeing to the Wall, it would mean Trump wins and can do what he wants without worrying about Congress approval. I think McConnell is the one with the pressure point on him since he won't even allow a vote on things the Senate has already spproved 100-0.


They can't cave for two reasons.

1. Something like 6% of Democrats want a wall. They'll either get primaried or lose support chunks of the 2018 that delivered the House will stay home and reelect Trump.

2. If they cave, Trump will do it again in the summer for the debt ceiling and for next year's budget.

albionmoonlight 01-16-2019 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronconick (Post 3228916)
2. If they cave, Trump will do it again in the summer for the debt ceiling and for next year's budget.


Yup. You either send the message that this works, or that it does not work.

The only way I think that the Dems should "cave" on the wall is if the GOP gives up significant concessions in return. Like, for instance, DACA reform, changing the law to take shutdowns and debt ceiling fights off the table forever, and a significant COLA for federal workers and an elimination of the provision that allows a President to cancel the COLAs.

But the GOP isn't close to giving up even one thing on this list, so the Dems really just have to wait.

Thomkal 01-16-2019 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronconick (Post 3228916)
They can't cave for two reasons.

1. Something like 6% of Democrats want a wall. They'll either get primaried or lose support chunks of the 2018 that delivered the House will stay home and reelect Trump.

2. If they cave, Trump will do it again in the summer for the debt ceiling and for next year's budget.



Yep my thoughts exactly-it'd be horrible to lose the first battle after people voted Dens to take control of the House.

albionmoonlight 01-16-2019 01:57 PM

Oh, and speaking of McConnell, there's a good chance that the Dem candidate in 2020 will be Matt Jones, who's a local sports radio guy and has an NFL bit on ESPN Radio. And he's a former co-worker of mine. So if he does run, it will be cool to have a guy I know running in a nationally discussed race.

Vince, Pt. II 01-16-2019 02:44 PM

MattJones4President?

albionmoonlight 01-16-2019 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II (Post 3228934)
MattJones4President?


:lol:

Edward64 01-16-2019 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II (Post 3228934)
MattJones4President?


I'm all for a former AR QB star being President.

Didn't take us to the promised land but pretty exciting player.

digamma 01-16-2019 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand (Post 3213041)
It's patently obvious where the goalposts eventually land, right? At some point the MAGA message will simply shift to "as long as the Russians, whom we were working with of course, didn't actually go into the voting machines and change votes, then there's nothing wrong with what we did together to alter the US election." And 40% of America, and a theoretically valid Electoral College majority, will effectively agree that we have always been at war with Eastasia.


Rudy Giuliani tonight said that he never said the campaign didn't collude with Russia, and that Trump only said that he, individually, didn't collude with Russia.

molson 01-16-2019 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digamma (Post 3228957)
Rudy Giuliani tonight said that he never said the campaign didn't collude with Russia, and that Trump only said that he, individually, didn't collude with Russia.


Glad that's cleared up.

digamma 01-16-2019 08:54 PM

Yup, no big deal.

Edward64 01-16-2019 09:11 PM

Nice. I like it, somewhat Clintonian.

Atocep 01-16-2019 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digamma (Post 3228957)
Rudy Giuliani tonight said that he never said the campaign didn't collude with Russia, and that Trump only said that he, individually, didn't collude with Russia.


He also went onto say if Trump did collude with Russia it was a long time ago.

The Rudy backpedaling coincides with reports he's expecting the worst from the Mueller report.

ISiddiqui 01-16-2019 11:12 PM

Any time Rudy goes on TV he always admits something that makes it worse for Trump. Why does he still allow him to go on TV shows is beyond me.

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cartman 01-16-2019 11:26 PM

"My client might be a moron, a grifter, a colluder, a shyster, a con man and a jackass. But my client is no colluder." - Rudy Guilani

digamma 01-17-2019 09:14 AM

For folks who can get behind the pay wall, there's a WaPo article this morning that traces the goal post moving by TrumpCo on collusion since November 16.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.86eb2fe39b1c

JPhillips 01-17-2019 09:38 AM

Schumer by himself would cave. Pelosi won’t. For all the legitimate issues brought up as points against her, she’s a great legislative leader. We haven’t heard a peep about even slight cracks in the Dem caucus.

albionmoonlight 01-17-2019 09:46 AM

There's a great Onion article where Schumer is saying that he's as surprised as anyone that he hasn't caved yet.

albionmoonlight 01-17-2019 12:56 PM

I'm noticing the Dems' messaging today has been more McConnell focused than Trump focused.

I think that's smart on their part. McConnell does not want the pressure, and this helps to try and direct it on him. Trump wants the attention, and this starves him of it.

There's an argument that the best way to get Trump to agree to sign a bill ending the shutdown is to make the shutdown boring for him (i.e. not about him).

Atocep 01-17-2019 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight (Post 3229016)
I'm noticing the Dems' messaging today has been more McConnell focused than Trump focused.

I think that's smart on their part. McConnell does not want the pressure, and this helps to try and direct it on him. Trump wants the attention, and this starves him of it.

There's an argument that the best way to get Trump to agree to sign a bill ending the shutdown is to make the shutdown boring for him (i.e. not about him).



For a guy that's as dirty politically as McConnell he's largely avoided pressure. It would be interesting to see how he'd respond to a little heat.

Edward64 01-17-2019 03:08 PM

Definitely petty but agree with Pelosi not travelling overseas during the shutdown. She is needed for any negotiations and would presume face-to-face would be most effective.

Its not as much the what but the how he did it that I find fault with.

bhlloy 01-17-2019 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3229024)
Definitely petty but agree with Pelosi not travelling overseas during the shutdown. She is needed for any negotiations and would presume face-to-face would be most effective.

Its not as much the what but the how he did it that I find fault with.


Yeah, I agree with that. Sitting here at the airport watching Wolf Blitzer pontificate like Trump personally called the Taliban and gave them Pelosi’s itinerary and just shaking my head. With all the genuine shit going on right now why the hell is this the news.

kingfc22 01-17-2019 05:57 PM

The comedy ensues as now Mnuchin's trip to Davos got called out and subsequently axed.

:lol:

PilotMan 01-17-2019 06:01 PM

I wrote McConnell, so I'm sure he's feeling the heat now.

Also, I'm fine with trump's gambit with Pelosi. When you're playing the game, you gotta expect that sometimes shit happens. It's not outside the bounds of the game, and you're better if you anticipate it.

kingfc22 01-17-2019 10:22 PM

If this buzzfeed story turns out to be true....

Nothing will change from the Republican side. Lol

Thomkal 01-17-2019 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingfc22 (Post 3229053)
If this buzzfeed story turns out to be true....

Nothing will change from the Republican side. Lol



Well at least we now know why Rudy was "changing the goalposts" on CNN last night:


Attention Required! | Cloudflare


I think if Mueller has enough evidence to indict Republican Congressmen/women over all this-or least a report of their activities, there's not going to be anything left to do but to surrender and impeach the President. It will be interesting to see if Cohen says anything along those lines given his position in the RNC,

Edward64 01-17-2019 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingfc22 (Post 3229053)
If this buzzfeed story turns out to be true....

Nothing will change from the Republican side. Lol


It would be great if Cohen taped the conversation and/or other corroborating evidence ... (but doubtful)

Scoobz0202 01-18-2019 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3229058)
It would be great if Cohen taped the conversation and/or other corroborating evidence ... (but doubtful)



Hayes Brown on Twitter: "This is, uh, a lot of evidence it sounds like

https://t.co/CBtAs9tQgc… "


Also:


Sen. Amy Klobuchar, two days ago: “You wrote... a president persuading a person to commit perjury would be obstruction. Is that right?”
William Barr: “Yes.”


https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/sta...14743922905089

Young Drachma 01-18-2019 12:11 AM

Should we expect tweets?

Edward64 01-18-2019 05:31 AM

Ready for the darn Mueller report!

Democrats seize on report that Trump told Cohen to lie before Congress - POLITICO
Quote:

“This stunning Trump Tower Moscow story establishes a clear case of Obstruction of Justice, a felony. I've lost count now how many times @realDonaldTrump has engaged in Obstruction of Justice,” Lieu wrote in another post, adding: “Oh, fyi the first Article of Impeachment for Richard Nixon was Obstruction of Justice.”
:
"Listen, if Mueller does have multiple sources confirming Trump directed Cohen to lie to Congress, then we need to know this ASAP," Murphy tweeted. "Mueller shouldn't end his inquiry, but it's about time for him to show Congress his cards before it's too late for us to act."

Butter 01-18-2019 06:39 AM

Yeah, but unless he's on video holding a newspaper with a watch also clearly visible on it saying "I, Donald J. Trump, am instructing you, Michael Cohen, to illegally obstruct justice, which I am aware is a felony" we don't have enough to go on, right?

GrantDawg 01-18-2019 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butter (Post 3229065)
Yeah, but unless he's on video holding a newspaper with a watch also clearly visible on it saying "I, Donald J. Trump, am instructing you, Michael Cohen, to illegally obstruct justice, which I am aware is a felony" we don't have enough to go on, right?





I don't think that would be enough for some people.

albionmoonlight 01-18-2019 07:28 AM

I follow a lot of media folks on twitter.

And they are all saying versions of "This is just Buzzfeed. It isn't sourced. There's credibility issues. We need to wait and see if this is true."

But, if it turns out to be false, all you will hear is how the media jumped on this story and uncritically believed it and is just out to get Trump.

Indeed (tin foil hat time), if I were buzzfeed and I wanted to help Trump, I'd put out a fake story about him telling Cohen to lie, then when it is found to be false and/or not provable, Trump gets to do his whole "fake news" "they're out to get me" bit.

Scoobz0202 01-18-2019 07:41 AM

Sure we should always wait and find out if something is true, but the Buzzfeed News section is a FAR FAR cry from the "Take this 5 minute quiz" buzzfeed section.


Buzzfeed News has broken a handful of major stories the past few years and Jason Leopold and Anthony Cormier have done some of the heaviest hitting on the Russia investigation of all media. I believe they broke the Steele dossier just off the top of my head.

JPhillips 01-18-2019 07:45 AM



That last paragraph at least hints that the Buzzfeed story is correct.

Also yesterday a story broke that Trump instructed aides to reroute disaster relief money away from Puerto Rico and towards Texas and Florida. That's going to get lost now, but it should be a major scandal in its own right.

Ben E Lou 01-18-2019 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg (Post 3229066)
I don't think that would be enough for some people.

I assumed if Trump lost there would be violence("rigged election!") Similarly, I think it's safe to assume that if Trump is removed from office, there will be violence ("Deep State! Fake News!")

stevew 01-18-2019 09:21 AM

Unlike past Presidents, this guy isn't going to shut up once he leaves office

molson 01-18-2019 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64 (Post 3229063)
:
"Listen, if Mueller does have multiple sources confirming Trump directed Cohen to lie to Congress, then we need to know this ASAP," Murphy tweeted. "Mueller shouldn't end his inquiry, but it's about time for him to show Congress his cards before it's too late for us to act."


It's kind of like investigating a child abuse situation while the child is currently living at the house where he's being abused. Except with many more victims.

Thomkal 01-18-2019 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew (Post 3229079)
Unlike past Presidents, this guy isn't going to shut up once he leaves office



Well once he leaves office, all those indictments that may be coming his way, will stick. And he (or Pence) can't pardon the ones coming from the state of NY. I don't think they let you Tweet from prison.

Thomkal 01-18-2019 09:47 AM

I think anything related to Russia from Cohen will be behind closed doors due to the Mueller investigation, but if Cohen can prove he has tapes from Trump directing him to go and handle things in Russia/try to get a meeting with Putin, its pretty much game over.

albionmoonlight 01-18-2019 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomkal (Post 3229083)
its pretty much game over.


I'd like to think so, but the Trump/GOP 40% base has pretty much said that they consider the Dems a greater threat to the United States than hostile foreign powers.

I imagine that for a lot of them, it's bluster. But enough of them believe it to keep the game going for far too long.

Basically, the endgame for all this has been a slow march from "No crimes were committed" to "A Putin puppet is still better than Hillary would have been."

I'm feeling pessimistic today (being forced to work without pay so people can pretend that the shutdown isn't a big deal will do that to a person), so maybe take all that with a grain of salt. Maybe GOP supporters do have a line that they won't cross. I sure hope so.

Thomkal 01-18-2019 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight (Post 3229084)
I'd like to think so, but the Trump/GOP 40% base has pretty much said that they consider the Dems a greater threat to the United States than hostile foreign powers.

I imagine that for a lot of them, it's bluster. But enough of them believe it to keep the game going for far too long.

Basically, the endgame for all this has been a slow march from "No crimes were committed" to "A Putin puppet is still better than Hillary would have been."

I'm feeling pessimistic today (being forced to work without pay so people can pretend that the shutdown isn't a big deal will do that to a person), so maybe take all that with a grain of salt. Maybe GOP supporters do have a line that they won't cross. I sure hope so.



First of all, sorry to hear you are one of those most affected by the shutdown. I hope that saner heads eventually prevail and get this shutdown over with. I certainly can understand why you are so pessimistic.



Some Republicans are already breaking from the President-look at the recent votes on the shutdown, and sanctions. Most of them voting with the Democrats are up for reelection in 2020, and more and more pressure will be put on them to keep doing so as more evidence comes out, and more polls showing lack of support for the President on this issue. They just saw the House flip mostly because of Trump, so the writing is on the wall for many of them. Meanwhile the Democrats are holding strong, even when Trump tries to break them up like when he invited moderate Dems to the White House to talk about the shutdown, and none of them took them up on it.



If/when the Mueller report comes out, its unlikely there will be anything about Democrats obstructing justice, election fraud, colluding with Russia, etc. And a lot of unknown stuff about people not even talked about yet. I think now we can see the light at the end of the tunnel, though it still may be a long tunnel

Toddzilla 01-18-2019 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew (Post 3229079)
Unlike past Presidents, this guy isn't going to shut up once he leaves office

But like past presidents, no one is going to give a shit what he says after he leaves office


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