No, although as I said earlier, not all roles work exactly the way you might expect.

A normal mechanic for this role is that the fake seer (or fool) always gets light/good scans or all dark/bad scans. Some GMs always make it random, but Cronin said there is zero random in this game. It could also alternate good/bad, but Lathum has gotten two light/good scans. A final mechanic would be to always get the opposite of the truth, but that's not foolish enough.

Does that help?

Looks like Alan just said pretty much everything I did - my bad.

Yup, I understand. Just trying to see how a lynch of Telle can help us (since most of us think that if Lathum is telling the truth, he is the fake seer) - but other than a voting history, it won't help us out Lathum.

No worries - thanks to you both :)

I have this as well with the exception of Danny voting for oliegirl in 1282. However, it wasn't on its own line so I'm not sure if it counts.

No need to take it personally (and I'm sorry if you have) -- it's all just part of the game! :)

Pass's quiet play on day 1 and late vote switching (to try to control the voting?) have stood out to me, but I can't tell if they are just actions from a helpful villager or not.

I'm still not sure I fully understand the run on Telle (3 votes between 1268-1274) beyond general suspicion. And let's be honest - not many of us have engendered much trust.

In response to my request yesterday for veterans, I'm going to vote for one that showed up on both lists that will also keep 3 candidates close for today to see if we finally have some crazy vote movement that might help us out a wolf:

Vote Saldana

Pass, can you lay this out for everyone since you seem to be the driver on this?

Votes as of post 1409 (assuming Danny's vote counts):
4 - Telle - Passacaglia (1268), GoldenEagle (1273), oliegirl (1274), Chief Rum (1383)
4 - Passacaglia - Telle (1316), saldana (1340), RendeR (1356), LoneStarGirl (1389)
4 - saldana - Alan T (1281), claphasma (1291), Mrs. Schmidty (1358), McCollins
1 - Danny - Lathum (1256)
1 - oliegirl - Danny (1282), EagleFan (1311)
1 - LoneStarGirl - PackerFanatic (1319)

I will count those votes when I find them - the problem is it is almost impossible for me to see those votes unless I know they are there.

4 - Telle - Passacaglia (1268), GoldenEagle (1273), oliegirl (1274), Chief Rum (1383)
4 - Passacaglia - Telle (1316), saldana (1340), RendeR (1356), LoneStarGirl (1389)
3 - saldana - Alan T (1281), claphamsa (1291), Mrs. Schmidty (1358)
2 - oliegirl - Danny (1282), EagleFan (1311)
1 - Danny - Lathum (1256)
1 - LoneStarGirl - PackerFanatic (1319)

I'm off to work and I have no access there so this is it for me until around 4ish pst. I hate to see it tied up like it is but I like where my vote sits so I'm not going to be the one moving. At least there is still a few hours before deadline.

All right, car troubles. So strangely enough, I am around until I can get a rental car (probably around 11-11:30ish EST).

You didn't like my previous thoughts on Telle? :)

She is one of many that have a pretty bad voting record right now.. but that alone doesn't seperate her from most of you.. She also however was singled out by several different people recently.. plus we have a data point involving her with Lathum as well. Simply speaking, I think a lynch of Telle (evil or good) tells us more about others still in this game than anyone else does currently.

Heh...that's what I ended up doing.

+ mccollins vote ties it up between Telle, Pass and Saldana (post 1408)

Of the three tied right now, I feel that at least one of them is a wolf...and I really have strong feelings toward Saldana.

UNVOTE LONESTARGIRL
VOTE SALDANA

Plus if Telle comes back evil, based on my current hunch that I'm playing through my head that I know who the fake seer is (and in my crazy world, it is not Lathum)... but I'll keep that to myself for now since it seems that I am in the minority currently.

In fact, I think I talked myself into it for now even..

Unvote Saldana

Vote Telle

Fair enough. It just seems weird how often lately I have been targetted in games without anything that sounds like a reason. It's more of an eyebrow raiser to me, as I like to get a reason, something I can respond to. Not much I can counter with "gotta feeling...". :)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY GE!!

UNVOTE DANNY
VOTE GE

Yeah, figured that from Alan's duke role. Cool, I was only concerned with there not being new roles, given saldana's hypothesis of Alan being a potential wolf duke.

I just want to clarify I am telling the truth about being told I was the seer. My theory is thay I am the fake seer.

I have no way of knowing if I am fake or real.

just kidding GE

UNVOTE GE
VOTE PASSACAGLIA

Understandable - and I was just clarifying (for myself more or less) that even if one of your tells (Telle or Pass) is lynched - it won't really help us determine if you are real or fake yet.

I'm not really sure if I am the driver anymore -- I think some people have votes on her because of Lathum's scan on her. I can't comment on that, because like I said earlier, that hasn't affected me.

My thinking is that her vote for Lathum came after his reveal, but before DT's, and my hunch is that she was trying to feed off doubt in Lathum's reveal, and possibly get the seer. Of course, if this is true, I'd have to believe Lathum's story. If Lathum is a wolf, I could still see Telle's vote on him Day 1 as a way to clear her if Lathum goes down, but it's less likely -- I only bring this up because Lathum (and saldana's) recent vote on me have me wondering if they're trying to save Telle.

Telle says she avoided voting for Lathum on DT because Alan's move made her reflect on it, and think that maybe Lathum was the seer. My suspicion has been that she voted for Lathum when there was more of a chance he could actually be killed, but Day 2, it was going to be much more of a struggle to get Lathum lynched. I realize that my votes were the same as hers, but I think the timing is important here. When I voted Lathum at the end of Day 1, I was trying to get a tie and no lynch, whereas Telle's vote put Lathum ahead by 2.

And that's all I got.

I am thinking considering the people I suspect the most right now are all on Passacaglia for today's vote that either I am paranoid delusional or I feel really good about my vote right now and someone is trying to save a wolf by getting Pass lynched.

Pass I'm sorry I just don't buy the tie-no lynch argument.

did you really think you could pull off a tie with 21 people voting and then get past the masons?

5 - Telle - Passacaglia (1268), GoldenEagle (1273), oliegirl (1274), Chief Rum (1383), Alan T (1419)
5 - Passacaglia - Telle (1316), saldana (1340), RendeR (1356), LoneStarGirl (1389), Lathum (1424)
4 - saldana - claphamsa (1291), Mrs. Schmidty (1358), mccollins (1408), PackerFanatic (1417)
2 - oliegirl - Danny (1282), EagleFan (1311)

no vote: SnDvls, Schmidty

no.

I thought while clever it was a huge stretch, not because of my abilities as a player, I just think the odds of Poli thinking of that and the odds of KWhit figuring that out are astronomical.

And the way DT sunk his teeth into it he was begging to call attention to himself.

Here's post 758, where I said I just thought it was our best option, not that I thought it could be done easily.

Passacaglia: Wolf Lightning Rod

Ok here is my issue with this argment:

You say she's been picked out by a few people, this is untrue, the only person who truly came out against her was Pass, everyone else simply played off his original and I might add incorrect logic that her day 1 voting and subsequent night kill were somehow related which as has been shown they couldn't have been.

Your data point with her and Lathum is no beter/worse than whomever else lathum has scanned, so again, why the arbitrary choice here?

I'm certain she's good, Its a gut feeling which with her I almost never have. She's a terribly hard read for me in these games but I know in my guts she's good and that at least will keep me from voting for her over any number of equally useful voting options that we have today.

I really don't see where you're getting anything out of a lynch of Telle at this point that would be worth losing another villager after the utter calamity that was day 2.

Now lets step back and get an answer to my question for you last night:

Why are you suggesting that passacaglia should NOT explain himself and his voting choices? It makes no sense that you as the Duke would NOT want someone to clarify their position, especially when its obvious that Pass has been very suspicious.

So please, enlighten us, give us some reason to follow what for all affects appears to be a totally blind alley?

I'm willing to discuss lynching Sal or Pass today since they're the high vote getters, but I just don't like the run on Telle, its got no real basis, she's done nothing that half of us haven't done (including myself AND Pass). Its like Voting for Clap just because he's loud and obnoxious ;), its not a smart move.

Thanks for that Pass.

Can you give me any help for understanding your day 1 play? Incredibly quiet and then trying hard for a tie?

welcome to my world

Just biding my time, trying to decide what I thought about Lathum. The run on DT made me vote Lathum to keep it close, then DT's reveal made me want to try to save both, just in case. Hope that helps -- let me know if there's anything else I can answer.

Subsequent night kill? When did I ever say anything about that?

See I don't see the timing here making any difference, you both did the exact same thing, you say your reasons are better than hers? why? self preservation? If thats the case then just say it that way. nothing you stated in that post really shows any intent or malevelance on her part, but yesterday you hounded this into the ground to get things moving on her.

Right now you smell like wet fur my friend. The more you keep going around with that the more it stinks.

You are not correct, several people brought up Telle before Pass did. Lathum did originally on day 2, Goldeneagle I believe did before Pass as well, and there might be others.

As for answers to your other questions.. my role as Duke doesn't mean that I press everyone for every issue that anyone might want answers for.. It means that I can press people for answers to the questions that I want an answer to... and I have the power to do so if I don't get answers.

And just like I did yesterday with DaddyTorgo when people pushed me some on why I was acting oddly to do with him, it should be obvious at some point to most people that I have reasons for why I do what I do... and to say what my theories are at this time would only possibly get good people killed. Since the wolves know better than anyone else if I am right or wrong, and if I get a theory correct, it will point them exactly at who to target for night kills... So for now if you continue to push me on this, I'll assume you have some evil agenda.

And let's not forget that with the masons in the game a tie isn't as bad of a thing. Perhaps we should trust them to break a tie rather than trying to force a no-tie situation.

I think a vote for Telle is a really bad idea.

I am almost positive she is a villager

Argh, gimme a week, I'll slog through 20 pages of crap and find it.

BTW-

anyone who thinks a vote for Telle will give us a data point for if I am the real seer or not, a vote on Pass will do the same thing since I scanned him last night.

Self preservation? What are you talking about? I didn't have any votes on me at the time. To repeat, I made the move to try to save two villagers who had revealed roles -- if you'll recall, this is what Alan did, only he was better at it than I was! Telle just didn't believe Lathum, so voted for him.

Telle is the one that helps me out better though than Pass would.

I don't think I have ever felt like I just listened to a smarmy car salesman more than I do right now.

You may well be the duke but you're not ACTING like your trying to help anyone right now. We need clarity not more confusion Alan. Stop muddying everything up. If there is a reason to trust Pass then lets get it out there so we don't kill someone else that we need.

Assume what you like, I guarentee you that I am not a wolf and that my agenda is finding them.

I and others have shot the theories about telle to hell enough already, if you and those voting for her can't see that faults in the logic then I don't know what will convince you.

Don't lynch another villager, god knows with the luck we've had thus far she's probably got a role too. Our record in lynches isn't pretty right now.:banghead:

No offense but who cares if it helps you more than say lathum or me or Schmidty? Why are you special?

You've told two lies about me in the last half hour and accuse Alan of muddying things up? Irony.

Pass wears womens underwear.

thats no lie.

Well so far I'm not really at fault for the previous lynch as I wasn't pushing for the lead candidate, or the 2nd candidate or the 3rd candidate.. or the 4th candidate... and when you wanted everyone to focus on only those candidates, I even said so... So don't blame me when I tried to steer you away from that choice :)

Today is my day, this isn't about me trusting pass.. and in fact I'll feel one way or another about Pass a bit stronger perhaps after this vote.. This vote is to help me get a better read on several people (perhaps yourself included Render). This is the strongest that I have seen anyone fight against a lynch candidate so far, and there has to be a reason for it.

Like I said earlier, my choices for lynch today were either Saldana and Telle, but I agree that I'll learn more about others from a Telle lynch than a Saldana lynch. You either are with me or against me Render, thats fine, but one way or another I am going to find out about Telle today.. regardless if you want to help me or not.

Blah, ignore that last post, of course it helps you decide your vote, I'm just positive its the wrong way to go and no matter what you glean from it its not woth losing another villager for the knowledge.

Alan.. can you please do what I asked you earlier? Think through theories that you might gain when I come up good. You keep assuming that I'm bad. But what happens when I turn up good? What will that mean to you?

It actually will mean just as much to me if you end up good as bad, just in a different direction if that makes sense. I'm on the fence on several people, but for whatever reason the people I do suspect the most right now all want to see you live. There could be several reasons for this of course though, some good, some bad.

Alan, if Telle gets lynched and comes up what I think she is you are getting my vote tomorrow.

there is no way you aren't picking up what is being laid down right now.

I have not lied about you as far as I know, I admit I haven't gone back through 30 pages of shyte and am running on memory, but You ARE a driving force on Telle, yet your theory doesn't hold any water.

You voted the EXACT same way she did, yet YOUR reasons for it are more valid than hers?

Craptastic.

Why should we believe YOUR reasoning over hers? Just because your's sound better?

I see where you're going with this, and I've thought it, too. But I have trouble believing it based on the last game.

Ok so tell us.. who do you think it makes more likely good or more likely bad when I come up good?

uh, yeah

Do you think your threats are going to scare me? I don't think that is your intention though, I think you probably have already figured out the same thing I am thinking anyways though. If I have to guess, your threats are to try to scare people away from voting her.

If you are so strong in believing Telle, then why not vote for Sal to see if that could save her instead? You haven't scanned Sal yet, so surely he would be a better target for you than her?

Ever consider the idea that you have the wrong suspects?

Ignorance is bliss, I guess. I never said anything about a "subsequent night kill" and I really don't know what you're talking there. And you mentioned me voting for self-preservation on a day when I had no votes on me. Talk about muddying the waters.

I'll entertain that scenerio once I actually believe you are good.

*smirx*

Sure, it's possible. I've been wrong before and I've been right before.. Guess we will figure it out this time which the case is.

Well, if my reasoning sounds better, why are you believing hers?

Well I know I'm good and it's obvious that there are others on here who understand and believe me. So why don't you think it through and enlighten us all so that we can have the benefit of you analysis today until waiting until tomorrow after you've led the charge on killing another villager?

Oh and RendeR, I don't think it was Pass who had the theory on Lathum not being killed makes him the fake seer and me a wolf. I don't recall who it was though.

YOu should be scared. Look what happened to DT and BK when they fucked with me.


And a vote for Pass is the same as a vote for Sal, plus it gives us a data point to work with.

Alan, you are wrong here. At least entertain that fact and TRY looking the other direction. Don't assume one way at the cost of seeing the whole picture.

im just cunfsed by alan. i mean EVERYTHNG screems wolf about him...... btu we know hes the duke? right? RIGHT?

Why does everyone keep saying I led the charge to kill any villager so far? :)

I've only really pushed for two people to be lynched this game thus far.. and as of present both are still alive.

Oh...ok, I apologize then, I was certain that was his theory. As I said I don;t have a week to slog through 30 pages of bullshit so I may be misinformed.

No I meant that two villagers have already been killed, and now you're leading the charge on killing a new villager. Sorry that wasn't more clear.

I'm taking notes by the way of people who are actually trying to push the idea that Saldana started of trying to discredit me as the duke.

What the heck?

Oh I don't think you're a wolf in Duke's clothing.. I just think you're seriously misguided.

Alan you're discreciting yourself at this point, as Clap said, your play is SCREAMING wolf right now. you're not looking helpful at all.

Hi Render, I'm an unanswered question! :)

:lol:

Alan, you're being stubborn because you feel you have a solid theory. Right now I know and Tele knows and it would appear that Lathum knows you're headed in the completely wrong direction, asll we're asking is that you reconsider your theories and see where THAT path leads you before we lose someone else.

Isn't that WORTH taking the time to flip flop what you 'think' and see where your theories go based on that?

Give it a shot.

I've already explained myself several times only to be met by threats and accusations. Do you really expect me to even bother with you now? I've written you off as either a wolf or a villager who refuses to listen to anything I say so it really is pointless.

People called me an idiot for no lynching a vote that ended up saving the bodyguard, People gave me grief for trying to keep the wolves away from the bodyguard in hopes they would think if we still doubted him they might leave him alone for us to lynch him. People are now giving me grief for me wanting to protect people that I feel I have a read on for other roles now.

Remember last game, as a wolf I did a pretty decent job of reading roles from people.. maybe this game I am sucking to make up for it.. or maybe I'm correct.. who knows. No one has given me a chance to test my theories as of yet, and I am likely going to be night killed at some point before I get too much more of a chance.. So I feel now is going to have to be the time I figure things out..

If I'm wrong then my apologies to Telle.. but I seriously need to settle in my mind which side she is on today.

Because it sounds contrived Pass. "HERE I AM TO SAVE THE DAY!" comes across just a little too conveniently. Her reasoning sounds pretty much identical to mine and is therefore far more believable.


I thought I had responded to this already, sorry, too many posts to go through and I think I may kill my chldren soon if they don't start behaving better ...

:mad::rant::mad::rant::mad::rant:

I said the same thing to Lathum earlier. Saldana is a viable candidate just sitting there if you really feel you must save Telle. He didn't want to save Telle bad enough to switch there though.. I'm guessing you won't either.

I'm usually a pretty outspoken player, but I don't think I've come on that hard on Telle. In fact, if she's going to reveal, I might believe it -- though the longer she waits, the less believable it is -- it'll make it seem like she's afraid someone else will reveal the same thing.

You know what? I'll go for it. RendeR and Lathum feel free to follow me.

So what does this do to your theories Alan?

UNVOTE PASSACAGLIA

VOTE SALDANA

I'm fine with Saldana being lynched today. I'm interested to see how this plays out.

I never said I had anything to reveal.

I wasn't trying to say you did. It was just an 'if'. Are you saying you DON'T have anything to reveal?

Good. Hopefully it'll give you another day to think things through.

I'm not saying anything about reveals at all.

Thanks for setting me straight. ;)

Anyway, I just re-read the rules, and have to think on this.

At least somebody's thinking :)

ok fine, then just please think about this:

Would the wolves out themselves SO badly trying to beat you over the head with the idea that we should NOT lynch Telle today? Does it make ay sense from a game play perspective to come out SO forcefully to try and turn your thinking away from what we believe to be the wrong choice?

The wolves would just let you go on your way, hell they'd HELP you Alan.

I won't. you're wrong here and I hope you see that soon.

I still haven't seen anyone try to save Telle by moving their vote to Saldana

RendeR, I think I see why you're acting the way you are -- but can you explain the actions of other people?

Which people?

I think he's just pushing hard because he's just about the only confirmed villager we have alive.

I guess the people who have votes on me,, that are acting like I've rained holy hell on you. I can see why RendeR might vouch for you, but -- and you can answer this, too, not just him -- what do you make of the other people jumping on me?

I don't know anything about saldana or LoneStarGirl. If you're a villager and they're wolves perhaps they see you as a good target since you've been outspoken and drawn attention? As far as Lathum.. it appears that he gets it and is trying to keep me from getting lynched.

To reiterate: RendeR, you're telling me that Telle is good, right? That despite my reasoning, which sounds good, I'm wrong. I can accept that. But don't you think that other people who seem just as confident as you are making it difficult for me to accept what you're telling me?