In terms of foreign policy, the President is damn near a king, and in the post-WW2 era, the same is almost true in terms of military deployment. It's really a debate as to whether and when members of the executive branch should refuse an order from the President. As much as I loath Trump, it isn't a good idea at all to establish a norm of ignoring the President. That's the position the citizens vote for and can hold accountable.

dola

And now Trump orders 7000 troops from Afghanistan.

Gotta be fake news corbes, gotta be that nasty, no good, failing fake news that can't find a nice thing to say about the greatest president ever.

Between the prison reform, pulling out of trade agreements, and removal of forces from international conflict, if universal healthcare somehow passes on his watch (which doesn't seem entirely ludicrous, considering his process) he'll be much closer to practically delivering on the Green Party's platform, than any of his campaign promises. These are fascinating, terrifying times.

5.5 billion pledge by the house....ugh. for a stupid wall which is only a political tool. It's a guarantee they are going to try to funnel that money into their pockets and later claim that it was "underfunded".

Stupider than Star Wars this is

Yay lame duck House.

Let's hope this shutdown does not last too long.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...border-n950666

Too.damn.late

Or perhaps he'll be too fixated on the wall to think about Mattis. 10 tweets already this morning, all about the wall.

I'm so old, I remember when trump said he was going to take responsibility for a shutdown.

This is a complete pipe dream, but I would love it if in 2019, the media stopped taking anonymous quotes from "senior administration officials."

We get it. Lots of people on the inside not related to Trump think he's crazy. Taking yet another anonymous quote saying that tells us nothing. Make them put their name on the record or you don't report it.

It actively harms the country at this point to give these people the illusion that they are doing something good by continuing to work for the administration and throwing out the occasional "It's really fucked up in here" to a NYT reporter so they can sleep at night.

Somebody really wants to get to Mar-A-Lago

I texted a good friend of mine who happens to have served as an officer in the marines under Mattis's command to get his thoughts. He is a registered Republican. Here's his response:

McConnell doesn't take the bait, won't invoke nuclear option for a 2 month continuation.

That was never an option. McConnel will destroy everything in subservience to Trump. Unless it is something he actually cares about.

Chuck Schumer is my fucking hero

So for the umpteenth time over the past 2 years, is this finally going to be the moment(s)/week where the R's start to separate themselves from the Trump party?

I don't dive as deep in to this stuff as a lot of you, but Schumer really threw down the gauntlet there, and I can not wait to see how Trump responds.

I was watching on Fox News at my in Laws, it is all my mother in law ever has on. They are a disgrace. Right after Schumer ends they pan away and go right to discussing Mattis again, not one word about how Schumer just eviscerated Trump.

McConnell doing his best Trump impersonation right now

We'll never know. Just announced that RBG has cancer. Nothing like a "SUPREME COURT" reminder at a critical point to bring the Rs back in lockstep with teh Donald.

Stupid question, but it is even possible to have a clean withdrawal from the middle east? Its weird to me to see people that were screaming to end these wars now screaming about this withdrawal. I'm not smart enough to know the best approach here, and it seems Trump is doing this against advisors, but what can we do beyond 1) stay forever or 2) pull out completely. What does another 6 months, 5 years, or 20 years change?

I'm in favor of withdrawing a lot of our troops, but there has to be a process. For all Obama was slammed about pulling out of Iraq, he did it the right way, plans were made and allies were consulted. It wasn't just announced one day while both the DoD and allies were scrambling to figure out what the announcement meant.

And we shouldn't forget that this has the stink of a deal with Russia and/or Turkey all over it and Mattis implied as much in his letter.

Syria has been a Russian client state for over a half century. I don't really care all that much what goes on there.

Yep. You need to have an orderly process here. Or else you just end up confusing everyone and creating a vacuum that wasn't adequately planned for.

Markets down big again. Going to end up being a rough year.

Yeah its depressing to get a paycheck after two weeks of work only to go home and realize you lost more in the market that day.

Shocking, NC begged the feds the investigate actual large scale voter fraud that affected elections and they ignored. Instead focusing on potentially 10 people or so out of millions that may have voted.

North Carolina asked feds to open vote fraud case last year

Ironic that everyone (evil-ish) was hoping her fall might bring about her rapid demise and it may have saved her life as far as finding the cancer.

It's great. The Dems want to re-run the election, the Republicans want to do it with primaries (so they can get rid of the tainted Harris), and everything is getting delayed and pushed until after new legislatures come in. So basically Charlotte will be the new DC & have no representative in the US House for 6-10 months next year.

In earlier times a President meeting with his unconfirmed AG to discuss a case directly implicating the President might be cause enough for impeachment.

So for entertainment purposes I'm on the Trump campaign email list. I have to say it rarely lets me down. This wall and shutdown have been gold as far as campaign emails go.

Boy are you a glutton for punishment Atocep.



In other news, that country-owned company that was involved in that mysterious sealed courtroom a couple weeks ago, has lost its appeals at the lower courts, and have now appealed to the Supreme Court. If the Supremes hear it, it would be the first case where they would review (hear arguments, etc) in a case totally under seal.

hxxps://deadspin.com/how-did-5-million-of-vince-mcmahons-money-wind-up-in-t-1831239844

(breaking the link because Kinja)

The article may not be the best journalism, but this comment:


Yuuuuuup.

Not only does this guy have a shady background, he's asking people to mail him personal checks.

DO NOT GIVE YOUR MONEY TO THIS GUY!!!

It doesn't seem any worse than the stock market at this point.

I mean...the people who'd be motivated to give their money to THAT grifter are likely the same people who've given money to the grifter at 1600 Pennsylvania, so...

I need to create the Clinton Foundation Investigation Fund or something and try to bilk conservatives out of millions.

I'm with you. But there does need to be a "process" vs what we suspect is a Trump tantrum of the day.

The ME is going to be played with proxies with minimum US boots on the ground unless necessary. We pick chess pieces, they pick chess pieces and over several decades, hopefully win, draw but not lose.

Regardless of what we think of SA, the Kingdom is the King piece and Israel is the Queen piece (e.g. most powerful piece on the board). Jordan is pretty friendly and strategically located, the somewhat other friendly Gulf states are too small to be anything other than bankers (should have made Kuwait the 51st state :) ), Egypt is an ally but not as tight as Mubarak but still better than the other guy they democratically elected.

The Palestinian issue seems to have been overshadowed. Whereas at one time Israel-Palestine issue seemed to be blamed for all the tensions and terrorism, its a footnote now (and like another post I had, the PA should accept 70-80% of what they want vs. try to get it all and move on).

So to answer your question, IMO we pull out but fight the "war" by proxy.

Ah, makes sense.

Bloomberg - Fed Rate Hikes May Have Already Cost Trump $5 Million a Year

Also, Mattis out as of Jan 1. (Now that the letter has been explained.)

Mnuchin released a letter today to make sure everyone knew he met with the six largest banks and made sure they had no liquidity concerns. Everyone should sleep fine.

Another fine day for the markets.

Somebody is losing their mind today. LMAO!

Ship him off to Florida already.

What a fucking baby. Jesus fucking christ how does this many have supporters?

I am all alone (poor me) in the White House waiting for the Democrats to come back and make a deal on desperately needed Border Security. At some point the Democrats not wanting to make a deal will cost our Country more money than the Border Wall we are all talking about. Crazy!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 24, 2018

BECAUSE HE TELLS IT LIKE IT IS!!!!!!!

I'm watching Lord of the Rings the Two Towers.

Further proof a wall won't keep anyone out.

I listened to Pink Floyd's "The Wall". It's proof that people behinds walls like to whine a lot.

Watched World War Z. Proof that a wall works with Romero zeds.

Watching Netflix Wolf series. Its about Turkish special forces/counter terrorism. The first episode had the team take out a bunch of terrorist in a school and second episode is about capturing a PKK leader.

Put it here instead of the Netflix thread because it made me think ...

The Kurds have been friendly to the US but are vilified by Turkey. I'm wondering if Turkey really does have a case against them? I know freedom fighter vs terrorist is relative and can also easily believe the US view is clouded because the Kurds support us.

Anyone know the real story?

Longest bull market post WW2 is over for both the NASDAQ and S&P, and close to over for the Dow.

And Trump sits in his bedroom and tweets about how alone he is.

Poor Trump.

Also the Democrats should give him his wall if he sings that song and puts it on youtube.

ICE drops off over 200 undocumented immigrants at the Greyhound Bus Depot in El Paso-without food,money, phones on a 40+ degree night. No strategy for what to do with them either. Looks like the city of El Paso are rallying support for them. Merry Xmas.


https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/24/us/el...ice/index.html

Everything Trump touches dies.

This is a joke, right?

Sadly it is not-they made the mistake of letting the press in to cover it.

Next week Fox News will be full Santa truthers.

Guys, guys, guys, Obama wore that tan suit. Focus.

Merry Christmas!

What an absolute fucking jackass.

I know. TAN SUITS?!?!!1!

Another 500 immigrants today

I was initially skeptical of the abolish ICE movement, but count me fully in now. We have no need for these ghouls.

8 year old died in border custody on Xmas. Happy Xmas.

So are you for open immigration then?

Are you saying we had open immigration before March 1, 2003?

CBP can handle the border and they or other federal law enforcement can handle those here illegally. ICE has become a home for sociopaths.

Why do people always take the all or none approach with this subject.

It always amazes me that Trump supporters (not saying you specifically) actually buy in to the rhetoric that the Dems really want wide open borders.

Just checked our investment accounts for the first time in a while. Down over 6 figures. That's just investments, not 401K.

We winning yet?

I really think that the Dems should start by telling everyone that the R's want on the spot executions for illegal border crossings. We could use Jon for public testimonials.

Honestly I think most of them would be OK with that.

When your de facto response to a child dying in the care of US border patrol is their parents should't have subjected them to that trip, you have lost all empathy as a human being anyway.

Is it cool for anyone in this thread, other than Jon, to have vastly different ideas than the majority of folks in this thread without getting jumped on and intellectually insulted? I ask this sincerely, because I would love to participate in these discussions; however, it has seemed such a hostile environment I stopped bothering. Heck, I even had to block some people that I actually like, simply because they were so insulting and deranged in their views of people they disagree with. For the record, I unblocked them today, because I want to give people a chance again.

For full disclosure, I am a Libertarian/Independent who voted for Trump, mostly because I was terrified of Hilary getting in. I don’t particularly like the man. I think he’s as oily and greasy as Bill Clinton, he just doesn’t hide it as well. I do think that he is doing well and in certain areas is falling short.

Anyway, I just wanted to start participating here again, but I don’t want to have to deal with a ton of animosity. Jon can do that, and I used to sort of be able to, but the past few years has really worn me down. The hatred and disrespect in this country has gotten to be too much. Maybe it’s because I’m old, but it’d be nice to sit down with people of all views, who will listen without having already begun an argument in their minds, while missing half of what other people are saying.

If you abolish ICE then you have to replace it with an organization with essentially the same mission right? Why wouldn't the replacement organization have the same problems as ICE?

Glad to have you in the discussion again Schmidty. Jon is still here after some comments that went too far in the eyes of many here. Now many have probably blocked him or just rolled their eyes when reading his comments in this thread. He's pretty set in his opinions, and probably many of us "on the left" are too. Its hard to chisel away at those edges. But by all means try.



It still to this day boggles my mind that people were terrified of what Hillary would do if she had won. For me, she would have been an extension of Obama, with more of a focus on woman's issues. She would have probably been drawn into some ethics investigation into her and her Foundation by the Republican Right just because she is about everything they are not. But I have to ask-would her and her cabinet be embroiled in scandals/ethics/immigration crisis everu dau? Would she turn her back on traditional allies in Europe or elsewhere instead of authoritarians like North Korea, China, Russia and Turkey?



Would she have sided with Saudi Arabia over a murdered journalist? Put kids behind bars for being guilty of their parents trying to cross the border for a greater life? Would she outright lie and spread propaganda on Twitter every day? I think the answer to most of these would be different than the man currently in office. Someone who does things differently than most Presidents before her? Again I think not.


I have my own issues about Clinton, but this country would be far better off now if she had won instead of lost.



Sorry for the venting.

Did you just put your money in the market? I ask because it's up like 15% since Trump took office. So tired of the narrative that any downturn is always due to shitty policy and any upswing is dumb.luck. Why dont we agree the markets operate pretty independent of.presidential policy? If not you should be quite pleased with the Trump presidency or your financial advisor sucks.

Hey look at that the guilt trip worked-Trump visiting troops in Iraq;


Trump in Iraq on first visit to troops in troubled region

Yeah it's definitely a liberal echo chamber. Now part.of that for sure is Trump is hard to defend a lot of the time but sometimes it just gets ridiculous like complaining about the economy or Trump policies that mirror Obama ones (like most of the border stuff). The worst is Afghanistan where Trump for all the wrong reasons has done what a lot of.people have wanted for years but now it's the end of the free world as we know it. Stick to your guns they are right about some things, (shock to them) wrong about some things, and for the most part nobody knows.

EDIT: I will say this board is generally better than the web in general. Like I said for sure an echo chamber that is always correct but they are pretty civil and often knowledgeable. There are a few who just spit out CNN talking points but it's better than Yahoo "bush sucks" "Obama isn't an american" type arguements.

Dow closes up more than 1,000 points

Not really kept up with the discussion recently and certainly have a different view on it anyway then most (not living in the US), but anyway ...

Most are not "complaining about the economy" but are pointing out the master economist in chief claims credit everytime it looks improving (by any measure) but blames everybody else when sth doesn't look good in terms of the economy. He is making it about himself. From what i have read most in here are pretty conscious of the fact that economic trends are fairly independent by and large.

In terms of the "border stuff" you can't ignore execution and intent. Or say that 80% of the vanilla policies are similar to Obama (or most other recent presidents i guess) and ignore the 20% that are fundamentally different.

And how exactly did you come to "worst is Afghanistan" ? From what i have gathered the most uproar is over Syria and there are perfectly valid reasons for said uproar. And it isn't about pulling the marginal number of actual troops but about the message it is sending and the larger future ramifications of it.

Overall Trump has made politics and policy based on short term personal (or party) gains and is utterly ignoring long term goals in pretty much every area from economic policies to foreign relations and from social security to environmental policies. I really don't see how that is a good thing regardless of the actual worldview behind it (which i admittedly find to be atrocious).

I hope this is a sign of good things to come but still the market has me rattled.

1. Several on here have made comments on days the market is down thanking him. I've said it before in this thread it's like the Patriots fans who would.complain about losing to the Bills. The dow is not someplace to try and take this president on.

2. I'll include Syria. Trump (for differing reasons than me admittedly) is finally scaling back the american empire (thank you somebody for doing it!) which brings me to point 3.

3. Every president and politician for the most part is all about stepping on the rest of the world and saying fuck it we are america. Trump just gets called out because he doesnt dress it up like they do. They all suck in my opinion but he certainty isnt the worst. (Maybe W Bush and even his father that apparently now was one of the greats with the media worshipping last month) And he really isnt that far from Obama (Smooth talker and Nobel Peace prize for perfecting drone murders makes him a different kind of president of course)

Most of my investments are in large mutual funds. My "speculative" stock investments include Amazon and Apple (not FB or Nvidia). I'm still in the black for those but it really has hurt to see all those gains melt away.

If you are looking for an dispassionate intellectual discussion, the answer is no. It will get personal, not just on Trump but on Immigration/Racism and on 2A. However, I have found this board to be better than rest of internet.

I can't honestly say I've changed my mind much but I can say that many discussions brought up interesting POV that have made me consider the counter points.


I don't like him, don't think Bill Clinton is anywhere as oily and greasy as Trump. There's some stuff he does that is "unorthodox" and it may work out in a good way (e.g. immigration, China trade war, NK, Palestinian/Israel, possibly SCOTUS) but it is too soon to tell.

However, with the market in a downward trend (a good part IMO on Trump's way of doing/saying things) his cons definitely outweigh is pros right now for me.


Welcome back.

I mean, anyone is free to articulate why he's not an abomination. I can't guarantee we'll be convinced.

For whatever it's worth (not very much) I feel like the idea that this place (and the internet in general) is a liberal echo chamber is a bit of a red herring. I think it IS true that social media (and this place as well) is a liberal echo chamber NOW, but that wasn't necessarily the case two years ago, when there were plenty of conservative voices speaking their piece before the elections, and definitely immediately after Trump got elected there were a lot more flavors of conservatives happy to wave their flag.

To my (admittedly biased eyes) I'd say what changed the discourse into an echo chamber wasn't loud aggressive liberal posters, so much as it was conservative posters not necessarily wanting to back up Trump's actions or policies, which went off the rails almost immediately. Since Trump is not very deft at hiding his rough edges and also manages to sneak his own personal (usually insensitive) politics into just about every political action he takes, he makes it hard to take his political side without also having to also defend or explicitly disavow his individual thoughts/actions, which understandably isn't always an attractive prospect.

That shouldn't absolve or ignore aggressive, liberal posters who immediately go nuclear and personal (which I have certainly been guilty of doing, and I'm sorry to anybody I've personally offended), of which there are plenty, but I do think it's fair to say that the relative silence of rational conservatives has much more to do with not wanting to defend Trump than it does liberal bullying.

...that said, I think even most of the liberal posters on FOFC would agree that they'd love to see more varied viewpoints, and would welcome all conservative posters to speak their minds more.

I kind of alluded to this before, but with some of his most recent actions, which are so radical that they almost reach far-left positions, is there a chance Trump could be remembered, 50 years from now, as something like LBJ, who is often touted as having been a foul-mouthed, racist asshole, knee-deep in conspiracy theories about shady dealings, but also credited with driving forth some of the most progressive political policies in modern times?

...at this point, with more than half his term left, it's nothing but wishful thinking that he'll continue to push arguably-slightly-progressive policies through, while his most conservative policies seem to get get hung up and discarded (and I'm actively ignoring his absolutely conservative effect on/dominance of the legislative branch, etc.), almost in spite of his best attempts, but I do think it's an interesting prospect.

On the one hand, the level of surface damage he's doing to our culture, world standing, inter-party relations, and the office of the Presidency in general is both impressive and terrifying, and beyond even the wildest expectations. On the other hand, if you were to tell me two years ago that at this point Trump wouldn't have enacted much serious border/wall policy, wouldn't have repealed the ACA, but would have enacted prison reform and pulled out of Syria and Afghanistan to some degree, all with complete GOP control, I think I'd have to consider this a best-case-scenario, on a very surface level.

And of course since its Trump, he did something wrong there:


Donald Trump Twitter Account Video Reveals Covert U.S. Navy SEAL Deployment During Iraq Visit

Maybe because when the markets are up the POTUS and his followers love taking all the credit, and using that as evidence why we should ignore everything wrong with him because the economy is just dandy. When it is down, crickets.

see above

And then there are those of us that kinda-sorta support some of him/policies that do give him some credit for the up market and do blame him for the down markets.

Trump does not control the markets but he can heavily influence the markets by what he says and does. First year and half, it worked for him. Last six months, not so much.

And all I am saying is nitpicking the stock market on a downturn and saying your losses are 6 figures means your gains had to have been montourous... 300-400K or more or you are just being disingenuous with your losses. Otherwise you are getting foolish investment advice because just investing in something as simple as DIA or QQQ would have netted you 20% (even with the recent losses) since Trumps inauguration.

This is the problem with the echo chamber I speak of. Everything is a conspiracy to supposedly help Russia or his family and he is responsible for everything bad so it's hard to take people seriously when he really is helping his family or causing market problems. I mean fed rate hikes have always had an effect on the market and Trump (correct me if I'm wrong JPhillips or Rainmaker) canf effect this independent federal reserve at all. Or so I've been told over and over throughout the Obama and Bush presidencies.

Not being disingenuous at all.

Not sure why it is so hard to understand that people are going to come at Trump when the market is down based off his screaming to anyone who will listen that he is the reason when it is up.

20%??? How are you getting this return under the TrumpDow?

The market under Trump is vastly under performing the market under Obama. Yet to hear conservatives pundits, Obama ruined the economy.

Sure. Seems just as dumb as the idiots who were all over Obama about the markets during his presidency. But if a huge net gain still leads you to complain about short term losses than have at it. I mean myself and like 4 other people will be the only ones to give you shit about it on here anyways. I'm pretty sure there are several posters who would welcome a full scale crash even if it cost them their lifetime savings to feel good about Trump failing at his presidecny. Carry on...

QQQ: 123 TO 152 (24%)
DIA: 197 to 228 (16%)

Hopefully one would have a better investment strategy than putting all their money in Nasdaq tracking stocks.

I dont play the red/blue game was quite happy with Obama's and now Trumps gains and quite pissed with Bushs losses. Would like the president to have no effect.on my.money but wont complain about gains.

Yeah 16% isn't all that impressive over two years.

Point being it isn't a 6 figure loss either is it?

not yet

I agree it does feel like this and that can be frustrating. I do think complaints about the hypocrisy from the man himself about how every gain is to his credit and every loss is the Democrats fault are valid, but there are just so many complaints to make about the man literally on a daily basis thanks to his screed on twitter that its too easy to get overwhelmed/overly frustrated and lose sight of... well, lots of things. God knows I've completely lost my shit here a few times in the past 2 years. Usually that's my sign just to disengage from the news for a week or so and reset.

Thanks for the good comments. I’m about to leave, but I’d like to respond to Thomkal and some others later. Really good posts.

I think whatdrove me over the edge was when people got so riled-up, they were questioning the intellect and going over the top just to insult people with things like “knuckle-draggers, mentally ill, evil”, et cetera. I saw that stuff on Facebook from people I know from FOFC and it just gutted me, because I’m know I’m not a dunce, nor am I motally corrupt (except in text sims).

Anyway, enough whining, I’ll try to post and respond to topics here from now on.

First off, I think you are a good person, and a lot of Trump supporters are good people. My mother in law is die hard, and would do anything for her family. I do however think a large majority of Trump supporters do fit the stereotype.

What I do not understand is HOW someone such as yourself can support him. What about him makes you think he should be running our country. You have a daughter, would you be OK with her talking to people the way he does? Following the example he sets? What about his thoughts on the environment and things happening under his watch that realistically could leave the world a much worse place for our kids to live?

How do you look at his Twitter rants and feel comfortable with him running the country? Look at all the people surrounding him either found guilty of crimes or quitting because they can't be associated with him. How can you feel he is acting in the countries best interests?

There is literally a laundry list of things he does that are completely screwed up. I could go on and on. How does one support that?

Please give your argument, I would love to hear it, as I am sure others would.

I’m out and about, but will give a quick answer. My first reaction is that I support Trump, not because I like him, his tweets, his rudeness, et cetera, but because the other side seems to be a much scarier option. I’ve never considered myself a Republican, although I’m more conservative than I am Liberal, but the way the left is acting is so over the top and aggressive, it makes Trump look completely controlled and measured. I turn on CNN and MSNBC and it’s as if everyday is the apocalypse. It looks completely ridiculous and deluded to me. According to them, the sky is falling everyday, and eventually, it’s just noise to a lot of folks. Fox is deeply flawed too, but in a different way.

Bottom line: I agree with more of Trump’s policies and ideas than I do the Democrats. To me, it’s a numbers game. I’m just doing the math. It’s irrelevant to me whether or not he’s a louse as long he’s furthering agendas I agree with and doesn’t buckle to pressure of those that I believe would lead the country to ruin. It’s like people that support Clinton. They don’t care that he was philandering and getting blowjobs in the Oval Office as long as they think he’s doing a good job. I get that and totally understand why people react that way to him. What I don’t get is some of the Trump-hate hypocrisy. Unless, it’s clear that he is guilty of treasonous crimes, I don’t see the difference. Heck, Clinton perjured on record and was impeached. In the end, did it really matter? I don’t think so.

As far as my daughter goes, I don’t need the president to be a role-model. Her mother and I are her examples. My daughter and I talk about Trump all the time. She knows that he has said and done distasteful and downright awful things in many circumstances. We both condemn him for that, but she understands that critical thinking means looking at things and people as a whole, not just observing things through emotion-shaded glasses. I’ve been guilty as hell of that my whole life and I’m honest about it now. I want her to learn from my mistakes. I have no idea where she will stand politically in the future (or now really), but I know that she will base it on her own beliefs and will look at all sides with an open mind, not one clouded by her peers, the media, me, her mom, or anyone else’s opinions. That’s my hope.

Anyway, this went on longer than I thought. Good to talk to you again Lathum.