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DaddyTorgo 12-18-2009 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 2187800)
I guess filibustering the military funding solely to derail healthcare reform is now patriotism. Funny how the rules change.


yeah...seriously

Kodos 12-18-2009 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack (Post 2187615)
Promote = "everyone should be homosexual"
Tolerate = "I'm fine with you being homosexual, heterosexual, bi-sexual, furry, whatever"

I can see why tolerate might have a bit of a negative connotation. Is "Accept" a better word?


Yes, that is a bit better. "Tolerate" to me means you don't like something, but you'll live with it while holding your nose.

Mustang 12-18-2009 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 2187365)
Shorter MBBF:

I'm opposed to HCR, but what really angers me is that Dems won't pass HCR.


Funny how people can read someone's thoughts different. What I thought MBBF was trying to say was, I'm opposed to HCR, but if you are going to do something, shit or get off the toilet.

JPhillips 12-18-2009 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustang (Post 2187843)
Funny how people can read someone's thoughts different. What I thought MBBF was trying to say was, I'm opposed to HCR, but if you are going to do something, shit or get off the toilet.


Given his history I'm not willing to see his criticism of the process as sincere. He doesn't like the bill, doesn't want it to pass and has praised some of the tactics employed to stop it. It's much more honest for him to shout "Hooray!" rather than pretend he's concern for the Dems.

Raiders Army 12-18-2009 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodos (Post 2187807)
Yes, that is a bit better. "Tolerate" to me means you don't like something, but you'll live with it while holding your nose.


To take a concept, apply it across the spectrum of lifestyles, and not be realistic about holding your nose in certain cases is very much a Pollyanna viewpoint.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-18-2009 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustang (Post 2187843)
Funny how people can read someone's thoughts different. What I thought MBBF was trying to say was, I'm opposed to HCR, but if you are going to do something, shit or get off the toilet.


Which is exactly what my point was of course.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-18-2009 02:13 PM

Copenhagen summit has ended with no deal whatsoever. I can't believe that the President or the Congressmen who went to the summit even saw this situation deteriorating to this level or he never would have bothered to show up. Charlie Rangel rambled on this morning in Denmark about how Obama would unite the world and get a deal done. That apparantly will not happen and likely is dead in the water with no firm deadline for any agreement. This was a big plank in his campaign. It's certainly not a broken promise per se, but it's a promise that was not delivered.

I'm personally happy that we didn't have to dole out another $100B in taxpayer dollars to foreign countries. We've got enough issues at home.

Flasch186 12-18-2009 03:15 PM

premature spinster?

msnbc.com -

BREAKING NEWS: U.S., China, India reportedly reach ‘meaningful agreement’ at climate summit

Quote:

COPENHAGEN - The U.S. and four other countries reached a “meaningful agreement” aimed at breaking the logjam on a broader international framework on climate, President Barack Obama said on Friday.

The proposal, which next goes to the full U.N. summit of nations here, includes a way to verify reductions of heat-trapping gases that cause global warming.

It also would require each country to list the actions it will take to cut global warming pollution by specific amounts.

The deal reiterates a goal set earlier this year on long-term emissions cuts and provides a mechanism to be help poor countries prepare for climate change.

The agreement was reached after a meeting among Obama, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Brazilian President Luiz Lula da Silva and South African President Jacob Zuma.

Obama and Wen, representing the two largest emitters of greenhouse gases, met privately earlier Friday.

Wen told delegates that China's voluntary targets of reducing its carbon intensity by 40 percent to 45 percent will require "tremendous efforts."

"We will honor our word with real action," Wen said.

As negotiations evolved, new drafts of the document, titled the Copenhagen Accord, emerged with key clauses being updated and modified. Later drafts said rich countries should cut their greenhouse emissions by at least 80 percent by 2050.

A clause was dropped that had called on developing countries to reduce emissions by 15-30 percent below "business as usual," that is, judged against the level had no action been taken.

No binding treaty for now
Some drafts called for a legally binding treaty within six months or no later than December 2010. Earlier, one draft completely left out the goal of a binding treaty next year.

The original aim of the two weeks of talks here was to agree to a legally binding treaty to succeed the Kyoto Protocol, which expires in 2012. But when that became impossible, nations agreed to work towards a treaty next year.

With the climate talks in disarray, Obama and Wen met twice Friday in hopes of sweeping aside some of the disputes that have barred a final deal. The second time was with several other leaders, not a bilateral meeting as earlier reported.

Officials said the two leaders took a step forward in their first set of talks and directed negotiators to keep working, but the degree of progress was not immediately clear.

Obama also met with the leaders of Australia, Britain, France, Germany and Japan. Also participating in the talks were developing countries Ethiopia, Bangladesh and Colombia, among others. China and Russia, both seen as key participants in the talks, also were present.

It was the second meeting of the day for the group. Obama headed into the first meeting right after arriving. Wen skipped the high-level meeting a second time and sent another envoy instead.

'Roller coaster' diplomacy
Meanwhile, other leaders were working on a potential deal with greenhouse gas emission cuts that could work, said U.N. Environment Program Director Achim Steiner.

Diplomats and leaders had only a handful of hours left for high-level talks to find the "miracle" answer that the Brazilian president said was needed for more than 110 heads of state to sign a deal at the conference's finale.

Frustration and discouragement outweighed hope in the addresses by world leaders to the conference Friday.

"It's a roller coaster of emotions," Steiner said. He said the chance of a meaningful deal was now better than 50-50, but the talks were "in crisis mode" and weary negotiators could still scuttle an accord with one or two outbursts.

"(But) a deal is on the table, it is doable," Steiner said.

Many delegates had been looking toward China and the U.S. — the world's two largest carbon polluters — to deepen their pledges to cut the emissions of greenhouse gases tied to accelerated global warming. But that was not to be.

China has been criticized at the two-week offering stronger carbon emissions targets and for resisting international monitoring of its actions. After a morning meeting with 20 leaders, including Obama, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said progress in the climate talks was being held back by China.

Blaming the U.S.
And the U.S. got its share of blame.

"President Obama was not very proactive. He didn't offer anything more," said delegate Thomas Negints, from Papua New Guinea. He said his country had hoped for "more on emissions, put more money on the table, take the lead."

Obama may eventually become known as "the man who killed Copenhagen," said Greenpeace U.S. Executive Director Phil Radford.

An early draft of the climate agreement, obtained by The Associated Press, called for rich countries to mobilize $30 billion over the next three years to help poor countries cope with the effects of global warming, scaling up to $100 billion a year by 2020.

But it called for continued negotiations on targets for emission cuts, with a deadline of a climate conference in Mexico City in December next year.

The lack of progress meant Obama changed the word "agreement" from his prepared speech to negotiators to "framework I just outlined."

United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon told climate negotiators that "the finishing line is in sight," reminding them that "the world is watching."

And Brazilian President Luiz Lula da Silva told negotiators how frustrated he was that the job was left to heads of state after the talks ran until just before dawn Friday.

"I am not sure if such an angel or wise man will come down to this plenary and put in our minds the intelligence that we lacked," Lula said. "I believe in God. I believe in miracles."

To move the talks forward, Lula said Brazil, a developing country, would give money to help other developing countries cope with the costs of global warming.

In a diatribe against the U.S., Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez criticized the climate conference as undemocratic.

"There is a document that has been moving around, all sorts of documents that have been moving around, there is a real lack of transparency here," he said. "We reject any document that Obama will slip under the door."

The conference has been plagued by growing distrust between rich and poor nations. Both sides blamed the other for failing to take ambitions actions to tackle climate change. At one point, African delegates staged a partial boycott of the talks.

"It is now up to world leaders to decide," said Swedish Environment Minister Andreas Carlgren.

Carlgren, negotiating on behalf of the 27-nation European Union, blamed the Friday morning impasse on the Chinese for "blocking again and again," and on the U.S. for coming too late with an improved offer — a long-range climate aid program announced Thursday by U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton.

'Nothing ambitious in text'
A leading African delegate complained bitterly about the proposed declaration.

"It's weak. There's nothing ambitious in this text," said Lumumba Di-Aping of Sudan, a leader of the developing nations bloc.

Any agreement was expected, at best, to envision emissions-cutting targets for rich nations and billions in climate aid for poor countries, but fall well short of the goal of a legally binding pact.

If the political deal is done, it would still be seen by many as a setback, following two years of intense negotiations to agree on new emissions reductions and financial support for poorer nations.

China and the U.S had sought to give the negotiations a boost on Thursday with an announcement and a concession.

Clinton said Washington would press the world to come up with a climate aid fund amounting to $100 billion a year by 2020, a move that was quickly followed by an offer from China to open its reporting on actions to reduce carbon emissions to international review.

That issue — money to help poor nations cope with climate change and shift to clean energy — seemed to be where negotiators at the 193-nation conference could claim most success.

Pollution cuts and the best way to monitor those actions remained unresolved. And negotiators also didn't come to an agreement on an important procedural issue — just what legal form a future deal would take.

DaddyTorgo 12-18-2009 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2187956)
Copenhagen summit has ended with no deal whatsoever. I can't believe that the President or the Congressmen who went to the summit even saw this situation deteriorating to this level or he never would have bothered to show up. Charlie Rangel rambled on this morning in Denmark about how Obama would unite the world and get a deal done. That apparantly will not happen and likely is dead in the water with no firm deadline for any agreement. This was a big plank in his campaign. It's certainly not a broken promise per se, but it's a promise that was not delivered.

I'm personally happy that we didn't have to dole out another $100B in taxpayer dollars to foreign countries. We've got enough issues at home.


Not sure that anybody really expected him to have much success with this, but if you want to paint INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION ON CLIMATE CHANGE WITH 190+ OTHER NATIONS as a huge plank in Obama's campaign...sure. Reality of the situation is that there are far too many variables, and far too many pressing issues at home, for the international segment of this to be a huge plank, or to even be damaging to him at all. I think domestic action on the environment and climate change and "green energy" was a far larger part of his plank than the International conference (and hey at least Obama showed up personally. Other President's probably would have sent like a 17th Undersecretary or something)

Flasch186 12-18-2009 04:52 PM

so McCain defended Lieberman's being cut off by Franken on the Senate floor when Lieberman asked for "a moment" eyond his allotted time to finish a speech saying that 'never' happens except it happened a few years ago by.....MCCAIn himself cutting someone off himself, Mike Dayton in 2002!

JPhillips 12-18-2009 07:03 PM

When will McCain announce that he's suspending his campaign until Lieberman gets his extra moment?

Flasch186 12-19-2009 12:26 PM

well at least the GOP wont be able to use the fiscal responsibility angle in their opposition...

Quote:

Coverage details
One Democratic official said an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office to be released later Saturday would estimate a deficit savings of more than $130 billion over 10 years, and the possibility of much more in the subsequent decade.

Forecasters said the bill would expand coverage to roughly 94 percent of eligible Americans under age 65, a total that excludes illegal immigrants. The official who described the conclusions spoke on condition of anonymity, saying he lacked authorization to pre-empt the release of the report.

or will they anyways?

molson 12-19-2009 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flasch186 (Post 2188271)
well at least the GOP wont be able to use the fiscal responsibility angle in their opposition...

or will they anyways?


I'm not sure that the CBO report guarantees that this will work financially over the long term, though I hope it does.

Flasch186 12-19-2009 02:43 PM

there is never guarantees but from what I read going out further on the calendar the savings go up.

SteveMax58 12-19-2009 02:45 PM

So then this is a better bill than the single payer system?

Flasch186 12-19-2009 02:53 PM

I have no idea. Im just saying that the fiscal opposition should vanish.

duckman 12-19-2009 04:05 PM

You do realize that the CBO's claims are projections and could change and will mostly change for better or worse?

Flasch186 12-19-2009 07:05 PM

Understood but when you hang your hat on something to support your claim, when it later comes out the opposite of what you thought, its Bullshit to then say, "Well its not really right, accurate, etc."

Then you shouldnt have cited it when it was in your favor at first. since you did and thought it valid then, then its fair to consider it valid now.

RainMaker 12-19-2009 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2187956)
Copenhagen summit has ended with no deal whatsoever. I can't believe that the President or the Congressmen who went to the summit even saw this situation deteriorating to this level or he never would have bothered to show up. Charlie Rangel rambled on this morning in Denmark about how Obama would unite the world and get a deal done. That apparantly will not happen and likely is dead in the water with no firm deadline for any agreement. This was a big plank in his campaign. It's certainly not a broken promise per se, but it's a promise that was not delivered.

I'm personally happy that we didn't have to dole out another $100B in taxpayer dollars to foreign countries. We've got enough issues at home.

How far does one have to bend over for energy companies and a political party to be gloating about something good for the environment not getting done? That somehow there are sides to whether we should want pollution pumped into the air is laughable.

DRILL BABY DRILL!!! SCIENCE IS BLASPHEMY!!! CONDOMS ARE MURDER!!!

DaddyTorgo 12-19-2009 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2188515)
How far does one have to bend over for energy companies and a political party to be gloating about something good for the environment not getting done? That somehow there are sides to whether we should want pollution pumped into the air is laughable.

DRILL BABY DRILL!!! SCIENCE IS BLASPHEMY!!! CONDOMS ARE MURDER!!!


gotta agree with you on this one RainMaker. sad commentary on us as a species...and i would say a pretty good reason why we no longer deserve to inhabit this planet...one can only hope that situation is rectified.


Mizzou B-ball fan 12-21-2009 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2188515)
How far does one have to bend over for energy companies and a political party to be gloating about something good for the environment not getting done? That somehow there are sides to whether we should want pollution pumped into the air is laughable.


Which is of course a gross mischaracterization of the situation. There are plenty of people on the 'other' side of the issue that want a firm scientific resolution of the situation. Right now, we have very little firm evidence of climate change and whether it is even man-made.

You want to argue we should cut emissions or clean up general pollutants because we don't need that in our environment? Sounds great. Just don't force it down some people's throats in the form of flimsy science.

Ronnie Dobbs2 12-21-2009 07:17 AM

MBBF could you cite which science you find flimsy specifically?

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-21-2009 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flasch186 (Post 2187984)
premature spinster?

msnbc.com -

BREAKING NEWS: U.S., China, India reportedly reach ‘meaningful agreement’ at climate summit


I'd agree. You were definitely premature. There was little more than lip service. There was no 'meaningful agreement'. Obama can't just make a statement saying there was an agreement and make it so.

The Real Story Behind Obama's Copenhagen Deal

Flasch186 12-21-2009 07:22 AM

please...

now youre just a liar. Your statement was that there was "no deal whatsoever". That is a out and out lie. But in your world of spin I guess "no deal whatsoever" doesnt mean "no deal whatsoever" it means "well no deal that I like or Ill categorize as such."

par for the course for the spin land of MBBF

Is the deal far from perfect? yes

is it non binding? yes

does the deal leave much to improve upon? yes

is it a "deal"? yes.

your leadin in once again is misleading. Amazing. 150 pages of a thread filled with lies, spin, rhetoric, GOP talking points, Blog regurge, humbling errors, and not one iota of anything learned. I thought for sure you;d see the light after the Bowling shortbus mishap but alas.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-21-2009 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2 (Post 2188953)
MBBF could you cite which science you find flimsy specifically?


gstelmack has done a great job of summarizing the flaws in the global warming argument. I'd suggest looking through some of his posts on the subject.

I, along with many others, have no problem addressing global warming if it truly exists. But there's been no firm scientific evidence that it does at this point. Most of it is presumptions based on flawed data. That's not a good enough reason to spend billions in taxpayer money and throttle back the world economy on a problem that may or may not exist.

Ronnie Dobbs2 12-21-2009 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2188957)
nothing


That's what I thought.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-21-2009 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flasch186 (Post 2188956)
please...

now youre just a liar. Your statement was that there was "no deal whatsoever". That is a out and out lie. But in your world of spin I guess "no deal whatsoever" doesnt mean "no deal whatsoever" it means "well no deal that I like or Ill categorize as such."

par for the course for the spin land of MBBF


Fair enough. You report back on the great impact that this 'agreement' makes on the world and its climate. It's awfully tough to make an impact when you have an agreement with very little agreement, but I'm willing to give it a chance.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-21-2009 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2 (Post 2188958)
That's what I thought.


If you're not willing to have an honest discussion, that's fine. I made the false assumption that you did. Apologies.

Flasch186 12-21-2009 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2188959)
Fair enough. You report back on the great impact that this 'agreement' makes on the world and its climate. It's awfully tough to make an impact when you have an agreement with very little agreement, but I'm willing to give it a chance.


not fair enough. Now you say Very little to hedge yourself, when you shouldve chosen your words better in your leadin...you didnt.

the truth is what I like to deal with. You dont and have proven so time and again...

Here...

this is what your leadin shouldve been:

"Copenhagen ends with deal that is substantially less than what Obama had wanted or promised. The deal is nonbinding and disappointing to many countries involved who'd hoped for somehting much more substantial."

instead you chose to spin and lie.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-21-2009 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flasch186 (Post 2188966)
"Copenhagen ends with deal that is substantially less than what Obama had wanted or promised. The deal is nonbinding and disappointing to many countries involved who'd hoped for somehting much more substantial."


That's politically correct BS. Nothing was achieved. The above statement still gives far more credit than what actually happened. Obama was trying to save his ass because he knew he was leaving Denmark doing little more than holding his jock. I suppose it could be spun to say it was a well-endowed jock, but it was still a jock.

There was agreement amongst all participants before this conference that unless a binding deal with firm deadlines was made, nothing would happen. There wasn't a binding agreement and there were no firm deadlines. Nothing will happen. The best option for those who support reform is to invest their resources into shoring up their scientific data to prove a direct correlation between temperature change and man-made cause of those changes. If the changes are going to be as drastic as they claim over the short-term, they should have plenty of opportunities to collect data to further their claim.

Flasch186 12-21-2009 08:11 AM

whatever, its pointless. Youre going to continue to be the same MBBF. You are what we thought you were.

RainMaker 12-21-2009 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2188957)
gstelmack has done a great job of summarizing the flaws in the global warming argument. I'd suggest looking through some of his posts on the subject.

I, along with many others, have no problem addressing global warming if it truly exists. But there's been no firm scientific evidence that it does at this point. Most of it is presumptions based on flawed data. That's not a good enough reason to spend billions in taxpayer money and throttle back the world economy on a problem that may or may not exist.

No firm scientific evidence? Through various polls over 90% of climatologists believe in global warming. Not politicians, not message board posters, but actual people who have dedicated their life to the study of our climate. Would you be questioning heart treatment if it was viewed as favorable by over 90% of cardiologists?

You have not posted on the "flimsy evidence". And the "flimsy evidence" you state is not really seen as "flimsy" by the scientific community. The problem with your "I, along with many others" statement is that you're not a fucking scientist. You have not studied climatology, geology, or any of the other sciences involved in this. This is no different than the creationists running around discussing how flimsy the science is on evolution.

Not surprisingly, you've probably noticed that the people on your side of the aisle in this are the same people pushing for creationism in schools. The same people who feel the morning-after pill is abortion and that stem cell research is evil. I know there is this push to turn evolution and climatology into political debates, but it's simply put a science vs anti-science thing. Unfortunately one party has attached themselves to the anti-science constituency.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-21-2009 08:22 AM

It wouldn't be a RainMaker argument without..............

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2188972)
Not surprisingly, you've probably noticed that the people on your side of the aisle in this are the same people pushing for creationism in schools.


RainMaker 12-21-2009 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2188951)
Which is of course a gross mischaracterization of the situation. There are plenty of people on the 'other' side of the issue that want a firm scientific resolution of the situation. Right now, we have very little firm evidence of climate change and whether it is even man-made.

You want to argue we should cut emissions or clean up general pollutants because we don't need that in our environment? Sounds great. Just don't force it down some people's throats in the form of flimsy science.

No they don't. The "other" side is just energy and other large companies who have a vested financial interest in keeping the status quo. They've suckered a lot of mopes into backing them but that's nothing new. Over 90% of climatologists believe in global warming and have produced thousands of papers with tons of data. You can choose to ignore them just as creationists have chosen to ignore scientific data in regards to evolution.

And when did calling it bad to have pollutants and chemicals pumped into the air become flimsy science? Do you start your car with the garage door shut because those wackos who tell you it will kill you are basing their assesments on flimsy science?

I honestly didn't think there was a debate on whether people wanted clean air and water. This is regardless of the debate on global warming. I just assumed that if we had a choice of having less shit pumped into the air and water, we'd take it. I didn't know people were deepthroating some businesses so much that they'd be against that.

RainMaker 12-21-2009 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2188975)
It wouldn't be a RainMaker argument without..............

Look at the fucking groups and politicians who are pushing for creationism in schools. Guess what most of them have in common. If you disagree with the statement, let me know.

DaddyTorgo 12-21-2009 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2188980)
No they don't. The "other" side is just energy and other large companies who have a vested financial interest in keeping the status quo. They've suckered a lot of mopes into backing them but that's nothing new. Over 90% of climatologists believe in global warming and have produced thousands of papers with tons of data. You can choose to ignore them just as creationists have chosen to ignore scientific data in regards to evolution.

And when did calling it bad to have pollutants and chemicals pumped into the air become flimsy science? Do you start your car with the garage door shut because those wackos who tell you it will kill you are basing their assesments on flimsy science?

I honestly didn't think there was a debate on whether people wanted clean air and water. This is regardless of the debate on global warming. I just assumed that if we had a choice of having less shit pumped into the air and water, we'd take it. I didn't know people were deepthroating some businesses so much that they'd be against that.


that's what really gets me - that somehow protecting the environment and making it cleaner has somehow become a political issue. really? you want to move to China to one of those cities where pollution is so bad that 5 year olds have lungs like those of people who have smoked here for 80 years (that's not based on any scientific evidence and is purely just trying to point out the horrible pollution problems in China)?

i don't get it. we have the technology to not pollute as much, so why is it a bad thing? because it costs more money? Last i checked - making businesses spend that money would benefit the economy.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-21-2009 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 2188986)
i don't get it. we have the technology to not pollute as much, so why is it a bad thing? because it costs more money? Last i checked - making businesses spend that money would benefit the economy.


And this is where the big disconnect comes into play. Anyone who assumes that big business will swallow any of these costs is not dealing in any form of reality. These costs are going to get passed directly to the consumer. We're going to pay for it and that will go over as well as a tax increase. We've already seen the backlash from the public in other countries who have implemented a cap and trade system when they saw their bills go up. You can be assured the same thing will happen here. Everyone wants to clean up the environment as long as they're not footing the bill. Eventually, it always gets passed to the individual taxpayers, no matter how it's structured.

DaddyTorgo 12-21-2009 08:52 AM

i'm fine with it being passed to me. you should be too. the earth has given you plenty throughout your life...time for you to give a little back. and all it's asking for is a few bucks.

cartman 12-21-2009 08:55 AM

Costs being passed on to consumers (either end users or other companies) is the fundamental method of growth for the economy. If there were no reason to have to have more money, then there wouldn't be a need for growth.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-21-2009 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman (Post 2188994)
Costs being passed on to consumers (either end users or other companies) is the fundamental method of growth for the economy. If there were no reason to have to have more money, then there wouldn't be a need for growth.


But when those costs aren't justified, that's a big problem. I certainly don't disagreee with you in regard to how an economy works. That's Economics 101.

Flasch186 12-21-2009 09:01 AM

and since MBBf was able to just let this go and move on to his next spin mastering, here is an article with a differing opinion than his on Copenhagen.

Quote:

Copenhagen, Denmark (CNN) -- President Obama announced what he called a "meaningful and unprecedented" climate change deal with China and other key nations that was expected to be sealed before the president headed home from the Copenhagen summit late Friday.

"For the first time in history, all major economies have come together to accept their responsibility to take action to confront the threat of climate change," Obama told reporters.

The president said he met with leaders from India, China, Brazil and South Africa, and "that's where we agreed ... to set a mitigation target to limit warming to no more than 2 degrees Celsius."

It's a nonbinding goal, and the emissions targets "will not be by themselves sufficient to get to where we need to get by 2050," Obama said. However, he added that it is a first step, and that for many countries "this is going to be the first time in which even voluntary they offered up mitigation targets."

"I think that it was important to essentially get that shift in orientation moving," Obama said.


The president said he believes it's necessary that the countries get to a legally binding treaty, but said, "If we just waited for that, we would not make any progress."

Earlier, a senior Obama administration official said, "No country is entirely satisfied with each element but this is a meaningful and historic step forward and a foundation from which to make further progress. We thank the emerging economies for their voluntary actions and especially appreciate the work and leadership of the Europeans in this effort."

Critics of the U.N. Climate Change Conference have said that without specific commitments from the leaders to actually cut carbon emissions it would be difficult to reach any target.

The deal calls on nations to submit their "concrete commitments" into an appendix attached to the agreement to specifically lay out each country's intentions for climate change, Obama said. Those commitments will be subjected to an international "consultation and analysis" that will help foster accountability among the nations.

"It will not be legally binding, but what it will do is allow for each country to show to the world what they're doing," Obama said, "and there will be a sense on the part of each country that we're in this together, and we'll know who is meeting and who is not meeting, the mutual obligations that have been set forth."

Another senior administration official had said the precise details of the agreement were still in some flux, so it was unclear whether the final version would include language that was in earlier drafts aimed at forcing nations to set legally binding targets for reducing emissions.

The president worked behind the scenes on getting a vote among key nations -- including China and India -- to approve the agreement before taking it to the wider group for a vote, according to the official.

The first official added Obama would leave Copenhagen shortly after addressing the media about the tentative deal in order to return to Washington before a major snowstorm hits.

So in this case, MBBF this article from CNN has called you a liar and I do too!

DaddyTorgo 12-21-2009 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2188997)
But when those costs aren't justified, that's a big problem. I certainly don't disagreee with you in regard to how an economy works. That's Economics 101.


You think making the economy cleaner and taking better care of the Earth isn't justified?

Regardless of how close we may or may not be to screwing it up, and to what extent we are (or are not) experiencing global warming - you think that making the earth cleaner is a bad thing? i mean call me crazy but i'd rather have polar bears around, and i'd rather not have acid rain that is so bad that it corrodes the paint on my car, or makes it so that i can't go outside and take a handful of snow and eat it. Rather not have fish dying in rivers, or shit...rivers catching fire!

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-21-2009 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flasch186 (Post 2188999)
and since MBBf was able to just let this go and move on to his next spin mastering, here is an article with a differing opinion than his on Copenhagen.

So in this case, MBBF this article from CNN has called you a liar and I do too!


There was nothing in that article indicating a binding commitment or any firm deadlines. This was the concern before the conference. That people would claim a deal was done and ask them to submit additional information. With no one to hold their feet to the fire, nothing will be achieved. I appreciate your effort, but well wishes and glad-handing do not make an agreement.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-21-2009 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 2189002)
you think making the economy cleaner and taking better care of the Earth isn't justified?


I do think it's definitely justified. I've repeatedly stated on this board that it's a great thing to push towards a cleaner environment.

We can do both without any of this climate change nonsense.

RainMaker 12-21-2009 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2188987)
And this is where the big disconnect comes into play. Anyone who assumes that big business will swallow any of these costs is not dealing in any form of reality. These costs are going to get passed directly to the consumer. We're going to pay for it and that will go over as well as a tax increase. We've already seen the backlash from the public in other countries who have implemented a cap and trade system when they saw their bills go up. You can be assured the same thing will happen here. Everyone wants to clean up the environment as long as they're not footing the bill. Eventually, it always gets passed to the individual taxpayers, no matter how it's structured.

Here is what I don't get. You wan't to let companies do whatever they want because it may hurt their bottom line.

It's akin to me crashing my car into your house. Getting out of the car, shrugging my shoulders and telling you that I'd love to pay for the damages, but that would hurt me financially. That financial loss to me would hurt other businesses in the area that I couldn't afford to shop at any longer and cost people jobs and money. So just throw a tarp up on the hole and deal with the consequences because my financial situation is much more important than your life.

The disconnect is this notion that major businesses with more revenues than the GDP of most nations can't figure out a way to slowly adapt to some new regulations. If there is money to be made, someone will find a way to make it. If these companies can't innovate and adapt, then they will go out of business and be replaced by those who can. You create the rules to benefit the country and the world as a whole and let the brightest people figure out how to play within those rules.

We had the same backlash when safety rules and regulations are placed on any industry. Whether it's pharmaceuticals, cars, or food. The automobile industry had the same complaints when the government started passing new safety standards many years ago. They then proceeded to go on to have some of their most profitable decades. Sometimes government has to step in for the greater good of the people to start up innovation in a field. Otherwise we continue on in the rut we're in with cars right now where MPG haven't gotten better in 25 years (while virtually every other technology on the planet has seen exponential gains).

JPhillips 12-21-2009 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2188997)
But when those costs aren't justified, that's a big problem. I certainly don't disagreee with you in regard to how an economy works. That's Economics 101.


I certainly don't think we should look at Carbon Cap and Trade given how SO2 Cap and Trade programs destroyed the economy as predicted by the energy lobby.

RainMaker 12-21-2009 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2188987)
And this is where the big disconnect comes into play. Anyone who assumes that big business will swallow any of these costs is not dealing in any form of reality. These costs are going to get passed directly to the consumer. We're going to pay for it and that will go over as well as a tax increase. We've already seen the backlash from the public in other countries who have implemented a cap and trade system when they saw their bills go up. You can be assured the same thing will happen here. Everyone wants to clean up the environment as long as they're not footing the bill. Eventually, it always gets passed to the individual taxpayers, no matter how it's structured.

You open up competition and there will be a company who won't pass their costs on. You'll have companies who find out how to absorb the costs or even avoid them altogether. Innovation in a market can do wonders.

And pass-through costs are sometimes unavoidable. All our food is tested by the manufacturers to ensure we don't come down with disease. That is a cost that must be passed on to consumers. Are you opposed to regulations on testing of food since it causes pass-through costs to consumers? Lets go one step further, why should nuclear power plants be required to have safety personnel staffed when that is just passing extra costs on to our energy bills?

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-21-2009 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2189006)
Here is what I don't get. You wan't to let companies do whatever they want because it may hurt their bottom line.


I'll ignore the rest of the post as it was based on this original fallacy. I do not want to let companies do whatever they want to avoid hurting their bottom line. I have no issues with environmental law to clean up the environment. There's a mountain of evidence that shows that the U.S. needs to work on enforcement of environmental laws along with passing a few new ones to close the loopholes. You can do all that with the backing of solid scientific evidence not in any way related to global warming to justify those changes.

RainMaker 12-21-2009 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2189004)
I do think it's definitely justified. I've repeatedly stated on this board that it's a great thing to push towards a cleaner environment.

We can do both without any of this climate change nonsense.

Isn't it difficult to do both when you don't believe in what scientists who are experts in the field believe? Kind of like saying I think it's great to push healthy lives but I don't believe in doctors.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-21-2009 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker (Post 2189009)
You open up competition and there will be a company who won't pass their costs on. You'll have companies who find out how to absorb the costs or even avoid them altogether. Innovation in a market can do wonders.

And pass-through costs are sometimes unavoidable. All our food is tested by the manufacturers to ensure we don't come down with disease. That is a cost that must be passed on to consumers. Are you opposed to regulations on testing of food since it causes pass-through costs to consumers? Lets go one step further, why should nuclear power plants be required to have safety personnel staffed when that is just passing extra costs on to our energy bills?


And all of that is justifiable with solid research. If it can be shown that it's a needed expense, I've got no problem with it. That doesn't exist with global warming.


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