![]() |
|
Quote:
yeah...seriously |
Quote:
Yes, that is a bit better. "Tolerate" to me means you don't like something, but you'll live with it while holding your nose. |
Quote:
Funny how people can read someone's thoughts different. What I thought MBBF was trying to say was, I'm opposed to HCR, but if you are going to do something, shit or get off the toilet. |
Quote:
Given his history I'm not willing to see his criticism of the process as sincere. He doesn't like the bill, doesn't want it to pass and has praised some of the tactics employed to stop it. It's much more honest for him to shout "Hooray!" rather than pretend he's concern for the Dems. |
Quote:
To take a concept, apply it across the spectrum of lifestyles, and not be realistic about holding your nose in certain cases is very much a Pollyanna viewpoint. |
Quote:
Which is exactly what my point was of course. |
Copenhagen summit has ended with no deal whatsoever. I can't believe that the President or the Congressmen who went to the summit even saw this situation deteriorating to this level or he never would have bothered to show up. Charlie Rangel rambled on this morning in Denmark about how Obama would unite the world and get a deal done. That apparantly will not happen and likely is dead in the water with no firm deadline for any agreement. This was a big plank in his campaign. It's certainly not a broken promise per se, but it's a promise that was not delivered.
I'm personally happy that we didn't have to dole out another $100B in taxpayer dollars to foreign countries. We've got enough issues at home. |
premature spinster?
msnbc.com - BREAKING NEWS: U.S., China, India reportedly reach ‘meaningful agreement’ at climate summit Quote:
|
Quote:
Not sure that anybody really expected him to have much success with this, but if you want to paint INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION ON CLIMATE CHANGE WITH 190+ OTHER NATIONS as a huge plank in Obama's campaign...sure. Reality of the situation is that there are far too many variables, and far too many pressing issues at home, for the international segment of this to be a huge plank, or to even be damaging to him at all. I think domestic action on the environment and climate change and "green energy" was a far larger part of his plank than the International conference (and hey at least Obama showed up personally. Other President's probably would have sent like a 17th Undersecretary or something) |
so McCain defended Lieberman's being cut off by Franken on the Senate floor when Lieberman asked for "a moment" eyond his allotted time to finish a speech saying that 'never' happens except it happened a few years ago by.....MCCAIn himself cutting someone off himself, Mike Dayton in 2002!
|
When will McCain announce that he's suspending his campaign until Lieberman gets his extra moment?
|
well at least the GOP wont be able to use the fiscal responsibility angle in their opposition...
Quote:
or will they anyways? |
Quote:
I'm not sure that the CBO report guarantees that this will work financially over the long term, though I hope it does. |
there is never guarantees but from what I read going out further on the calendar the savings go up.
|
So then this is a better bill than the single payer system?
|
I have no idea. Im just saying that the fiscal opposition should vanish.
|
You do realize that the CBO's claims are projections and could change and will mostly change for better or worse?
|
Understood but when you hang your hat on something to support your claim, when it later comes out the opposite of what you thought, its Bullshit to then say, "Well its not really right, accurate, etc."
Then you shouldnt have cited it when it was in your favor at first. since you did and thought it valid then, then its fair to consider it valid now. |
Quote:
DRILL BABY DRILL!!! SCIENCE IS BLASPHEMY!!! CONDOMS ARE MURDER!!! |
Quote:
gotta agree with you on this one RainMaker. sad commentary on us as a species...and i would say a pretty good reason why we no longer deserve to inhabit this planet...one can only hope that situation is rectified. |
Quote:
Which is of course a gross mischaracterization of the situation. There are plenty of people on the 'other' side of the issue that want a firm scientific resolution of the situation. Right now, we have very little firm evidence of climate change and whether it is even man-made. You want to argue we should cut emissions or clean up general pollutants because we don't need that in our environment? Sounds great. Just don't force it down some people's throats in the form of flimsy science. |
MBBF could you cite which science you find flimsy specifically?
|
Quote:
I'd agree. You were definitely premature. There was little more than lip service. There was no 'meaningful agreement'. Obama can't just make a statement saying there was an agreement and make it so. The Real Story Behind Obama's Copenhagen Deal |
please...
now youre just a liar. Your statement was that there was "no deal whatsoever". That is a out and out lie. But in your world of spin I guess "no deal whatsoever" doesnt mean "no deal whatsoever" it means "well no deal that I like or Ill categorize as such." par for the course for the spin land of MBBF Is the deal far from perfect? yes is it non binding? yes does the deal leave much to improve upon? yes is it a "deal"? yes. your leadin in once again is misleading. Amazing. 150 pages of a thread filled with lies, spin, rhetoric, GOP talking points, Blog regurge, humbling errors, and not one iota of anything learned. I thought for sure you;d see the light after the Bowling shortbus mishap but alas. |
Quote:
gstelmack has done a great job of summarizing the flaws in the global warming argument. I'd suggest looking through some of his posts on the subject. I, along with many others, have no problem addressing global warming if it truly exists. But there's been no firm scientific evidence that it does at this point. Most of it is presumptions based on flawed data. That's not a good enough reason to spend billions in taxpayer money and throttle back the world economy on a problem that may or may not exist. |
Quote:
That's what I thought. |
Quote:
Fair enough. You report back on the great impact that this 'agreement' makes on the world and its climate. It's awfully tough to make an impact when you have an agreement with very little agreement, but I'm willing to give it a chance. |
Quote:
If you're not willing to have an honest discussion, that's fine. I made the false assumption that you did. Apologies. |
Quote:
not fair enough. Now you say Very little to hedge yourself, when you shouldve chosen your words better in your leadin...you didnt. the truth is what I like to deal with. You dont and have proven so time and again... Here... this is what your leadin shouldve been: "Copenhagen ends with deal that is substantially less than what Obama had wanted or promised. The deal is nonbinding and disappointing to many countries involved who'd hoped for somehting much more substantial." instead you chose to spin and lie. |
Quote:
That's politically correct BS. Nothing was achieved. The above statement still gives far more credit than what actually happened. Obama was trying to save his ass because he knew he was leaving Denmark doing little more than holding his jock. I suppose it could be spun to say it was a well-endowed jock, but it was still a jock. There was agreement amongst all participants before this conference that unless a binding deal with firm deadlines was made, nothing would happen. There wasn't a binding agreement and there were no firm deadlines. Nothing will happen. The best option for those who support reform is to invest their resources into shoring up their scientific data to prove a direct correlation between temperature change and man-made cause of those changes. If the changes are going to be as drastic as they claim over the short-term, they should have plenty of opportunities to collect data to further their claim. |
whatever, its pointless. Youre going to continue to be the same MBBF. You are what we thought you were.
|
Quote:
You have not posted on the "flimsy evidence". And the "flimsy evidence" you state is not really seen as "flimsy" by the scientific community. The problem with your "I, along with many others" statement is that you're not a fucking scientist. You have not studied climatology, geology, or any of the other sciences involved in this. This is no different than the creationists running around discussing how flimsy the science is on evolution. Not surprisingly, you've probably noticed that the people on your side of the aisle in this are the same people pushing for creationism in schools. The same people who feel the morning-after pill is abortion and that stem cell research is evil. I know there is this push to turn evolution and climatology into political debates, but it's simply put a science vs anti-science thing. Unfortunately one party has attached themselves to the anti-science constituency. |
It wouldn't be a RainMaker argument without..............
Quote:
|
Quote:
And when did calling it bad to have pollutants and chemicals pumped into the air become flimsy science? Do you start your car with the garage door shut because those wackos who tell you it will kill you are basing their assesments on flimsy science? I honestly didn't think there was a debate on whether people wanted clean air and water. This is regardless of the debate on global warming. I just assumed that if we had a choice of having less shit pumped into the air and water, we'd take it. I didn't know people were deepthroating some businesses so much that they'd be against that. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
that's what really gets me - that somehow protecting the environment and making it cleaner has somehow become a political issue. really? you want to move to China to one of those cities where pollution is so bad that 5 year olds have lungs like those of people who have smoked here for 80 years (that's not based on any scientific evidence and is purely just trying to point out the horrible pollution problems in China)? i don't get it. we have the technology to not pollute as much, so why is it a bad thing? because it costs more money? Last i checked - making businesses spend that money would benefit the economy. |
Quote:
And this is where the big disconnect comes into play. Anyone who assumes that big business will swallow any of these costs is not dealing in any form of reality. These costs are going to get passed directly to the consumer. We're going to pay for it and that will go over as well as a tax increase. We've already seen the backlash from the public in other countries who have implemented a cap and trade system when they saw their bills go up. You can be assured the same thing will happen here. Everyone wants to clean up the environment as long as they're not footing the bill. Eventually, it always gets passed to the individual taxpayers, no matter how it's structured. |
i'm fine with it being passed to me. you should be too. the earth has given you plenty throughout your life...time for you to give a little back. and all it's asking for is a few bucks.
|
Costs being passed on to consumers (either end users or other companies) is the fundamental method of growth for the economy. If there were no reason to have to have more money, then there wouldn't be a need for growth.
|
Quote:
But when those costs aren't justified, that's a big problem. I certainly don't disagreee with you in regard to how an economy works. That's Economics 101. |
and since MBBf was able to just let this go and move on to his next spin mastering, here is an article with a differing opinion than his on Copenhagen.
Quote:
So in this case, MBBF this article from CNN has called you a liar and I do too! |
Quote:
You think making the economy cleaner and taking better care of the Earth isn't justified? Regardless of how close we may or may not be to screwing it up, and to what extent we are (or are not) experiencing global warming - you think that making the earth cleaner is a bad thing? i mean call me crazy but i'd rather have polar bears around, and i'd rather not have acid rain that is so bad that it corrodes the paint on my car, or makes it so that i can't go outside and take a handful of snow and eat it. Rather not have fish dying in rivers, or shit...rivers catching fire! |
Quote:
There was nothing in that article indicating a binding commitment or any firm deadlines. This was the concern before the conference. That people would claim a deal was done and ask them to submit additional information. With no one to hold their feet to the fire, nothing will be achieved. I appreciate your effort, but well wishes and glad-handing do not make an agreement. |
Quote:
I do think it's definitely justified. I've repeatedly stated on this board that it's a great thing to push towards a cleaner environment. We can do both without any of this climate change nonsense. |
Quote:
It's akin to me crashing my car into your house. Getting out of the car, shrugging my shoulders and telling you that I'd love to pay for the damages, but that would hurt me financially. That financial loss to me would hurt other businesses in the area that I couldn't afford to shop at any longer and cost people jobs and money. So just throw a tarp up on the hole and deal with the consequences because my financial situation is much more important than your life. The disconnect is this notion that major businesses with more revenues than the GDP of most nations can't figure out a way to slowly adapt to some new regulations. If there is money to be made, someone will find a way to make it. If these companies can't innovate and adapt, then they will go out of business and be replaced by those who can. You create the rules to benefit the country and the world as a whole and let the brightest people figure out how to play within those rules. We had the same backlash when safety rules and regulations are placed on any industry. Whether it's pharmaceuticals, cars, or food. The automobile industry had the same complaints when the government started passing new safety standards many years ago. They then proceeded to go on to have some of their most profitable decades. Sometimes government has to step in for the greater good of the people to start up innovation in a field. Otherwise we continue on in the rut we're in with cars right now where MPG haven't gotten better in 25 years (while virtually every other technology on the planet has seen exponential gains). |
Quote:
I certainly don't think we should look at Carbon Cap and Trade given how SO2 Cap and Trade programs destroyed the economy as predicted by the energy lobby. |
Quote:
And pass-through costs are sometimes unavoidable. All our food is tested by the manufacturers to ensure we don't come down with disease. That is a cost that must be passed on to consumers. Are you opposed to regulations on testing of food since it causes pass-through costs to consumers? Lets go one step further, why should nuclear power plants be required to have safety personnel staffed when that is just passing extra costs on to our energy bills? |
Quote:
I'll ignore the rest of the post as it was based on this original fallacy. I do not want to let companies do whatever they want to avoid hurting their bottom line. I have no issues with environmental law to clean up the environment. There's a mountain of evidence that shows that the U.S. needs to work on enforcement of environmental laws along with passing a few new ones to close the loopholes. You can do all that with the backing of solid scientific evidence not in any way related to global warming to justify those changes. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
And all of that is justifiable with solid research. If it can be shown that it's a needed expense, I've got no problem with it. That doesn't exist with global warming. |
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:16 PM. |
|
Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.