Wow, Howard is just embarrassing Verejao.

Did I say something earlier in the thread about anticipating the call?

Why are they not fouling Howard? Oh yea, Mike Brown can't coach

I think both should have been no-calls.

The Magic I think are just a better overall team then the Cavs. These guys are really really good.

Alston needs to stop shooting - the guy was crazy hot but he's such a streaky shooter and right now he's ice cold. He's a good defender though and definitely made a big play with that steal.

Why wasn't Howard involved in the 4th qtr again?

I think the Magic's style of play is a bad match for Cleveland.

Cleveland strikes me as a team that just finds ways to lose

dola- can they please stop showing that Axe Dry commercial, it's fucking horrible.

Howard has really taken over

looks like the magic are going up 3-1. Cleveland probably wins at home then the magic finish em off in game 6 I'm guessing. I'm indifferent on this series. Just enjoy watching. would love to see James vs Kobe finals. but we might get to see an amazing Nuggets Magic series instead.
This has been one of the most enjoyable playoffs in years, and my interest in the NBA is coming back.

tho I probably speak to soon

That was a weak call

What was worse, Turgolu's play? Or Howard's?

Refs trying to keep this close... Never know with the NBA

Orlando has way too many guys who can shoot the three and Cleveland doesn't really have any.

I say again

David Stern obviously called for that jump ball.

That was the longest 5 seconds ever to inbound that ball

I think it's on him. I think he just disappears at times. It was like that in the Boston series as well.

:D

they never call that foul when you have to lunge that far into the defender, yet every shooter who has ever pump faked his man straight up in the air tries it.

I think the team forgets him when the threes start to fly. At the very least he needs to be a part of the pick and roll in the 4th like he was in the first three quarters

In Cleveland they might have called it :)

:)

Lebron's future in Cleveland is looking bleak.

That ain't what David told me:banghead:

Ummmm that was interesting.

^^^ - now watch Lebron win it from half court

LOL @ Lewis.

LOL @ Lebron.

Yeah, it's going out on a limb to suggest the NBA is partially fixed...

SI

I can not see LeBron staying in Cleveland if he wants to win a championship. As long as he is there they will not be a lottery team and will likely pick in the 20s. Unless they get lucky and draft a kid who is a diamond in the rough they won't win the championship.

It's pretty ridiculous how it gets used as a crutch, however. People will always find what they're looking for, even if most of the evidence goes in the other direction...

The evidence doesn't go in the other direction though.

I don't think it's the team - I really think its the coaching. The announcers talked about how Cleveland played when they moved the ball and allowed Lebron to be a passer in the offense - the Cavs scored well and had a lead. Once they go into the 1 on 5 offense they suck. That's about the time the coach needs to call them on it and get them back to what is working.

They have enough talent - Williams, West, Z - those guys don't suck. I can't stand Varejao because he's a whiner and a flopper but he plays hard and is a good defender. And they have the best player in the league. Really what more do you need to get you over? I would fire Mike Brown, the "coach of the year" and give Lebron one year with a real coach on the bench before he decides if he's bolting.

Will be if the Cavs lose at home.....wait

Well it will be if the Cavs go down 3-1.......wait

I guess the Cavs will be given games 5,6,7 and that will prove it.

Dwight Howard was dominant in the overtime, three buckets on the first threee possessions <3

Lewis was a complete no-show until that huge three, he's hit a few big ones in the postseason so far.

Lebron got around 40 again but Orlando did manage to force him to make a lot of turnovers.

Cleveland looked so much better on offense in the first half, moving the ball around more, they scored 58 points. Lebron was setting up guys for easy buckets and they looked better than they have all series.

Both of these teams are susceptible to the occasional brain fart.

The NBA more so then College basketball is all about talent. How many teams can you name that you can say the coach was responsible for that teams success and not the players? Lakers with Phil Jackson? Chicago with Phil Jackson? Miami with Pat Riley?

In college basketball you can name those teams easily and likely won't generate much debate if you say Michigan State with Tom Izzo or UNC with Dean Smith. In the NBA its more about talent and the coach is more then likely has to be the one who is a motivator I guess.

Oh no doubt - Rick Pitino in college makes 1000x the impact as in the NBA. But if you have someone who doesn't understand basic strategy then you are a negative to the team. The coach may not implement a crazy system in the NBA and yes the NBA is definitely more about talent but if you can't make matchup adjustments, can't execute strategies in a multiple game series and can't seem to basically coach period then you're hurting the team no matter how much talent there is.

I would like to agree with you but Mike Brown just indicted himself and proved Gary right. He basically said that he stopped running the offense and HE made the decision to just put the ball in LeBron's hands in the 4th qtr. That just does not make any sense.

I agree. I think this series is not indicative of Coach Brown's ability because Orlando is flat out a better team then Cleveland. They were in that game because of LeBron and are in the conference finals because of LeBron. You could have a stomp on the bench I think Cleveland would have still made the Conference Finals.

However I do concede that with better coaching this might be a 2-2 series or even 3-1 in favor of Cleveland since with a good coach they wouldn't blow those huge leads.

Orlando is just an unusual team in some ways. A 6'10'' jump shooting specialist, a 6'10'' guy who does the majority of the ball-handling, Howard, guards who are not good at ball handling or passing but can shoot well, I know every team is different but Orlando is really different from most NBA teams.

They also shoot the three ball very well.

Well if playing against a "better team" isn't indicative of the ability of the guy named coach of the year I don't know what is. They rolled a Pistons team who was done months ago. They crushed the Hawks who are still growing but have some talent and they're one giant coaching brain fart by the other coach from lining up tee times right now.

Coaching during the regular season accounts for very little. Basically as long as you aren't a complete ass your coaching abillity is going to directly account for a W or L maybe 5 times max. Other than its all talent. The playoffs are when coaching counts.

Obviously Howard will get tech'd in game 5. Then cleveland wins a close one. Howard is suspended for game 6. The Cavs win that one. Then good ole Joey C takes us to the finals with game 7. That's the only way I see the Cavs winning the series

Agreed completely. I also concur about the dreadful coaching/decision making in this Eastern Conference series. Heck, George Karl and his "can't throw an in-bounds at midcourt" efforts look like Red Auerbach compared to these two jokers.

Still, I've had a blast watching every game and am almost glad I'm not really rooting for (or against) these teams. Although, I am starting to like Orlando a little more and appreciate what a strong team they have. I just hope we don't have a "Stern moment" in these final 2-3 games that end up with a Kobe-Lebron matchup but a bad taste in the mouth of neutral fans.

I've been thinking that the NBA would rather have Orlando in the Finals, so that Lebron leaves Cleveland. Of course, it would have been a lot easier to just fix the ping-pong balls in the first place.

I actually think it makes it easier for him to leave if he wins a title in Cleveland. He would have accomplished the pinnacle achievement in Cleveland and could then move on elsewhere. If he moves to New York without a title in Cleveland, he will always have that hanging over his head.

I'll be in Orlando June 5 - June 11.

I wonder how much tickets would cost for the NBA Finals.

I would be willing to make a trip from Fort Walton Beach to Orlando if they did have a game in Orlando on Saturday night (6 June). What's the best way to get tickets? Ticketmaster?

I didn't see anything on Ticketmaster today. I did see some listings on stubhub, but they looked generic. I'll wait until the finals are set, then take a look.

If Orlando loses game five I might get a ticket and drive down there for game six. If they make the finals I'll really want to go, the NBA is the last major pro sport I have yet to see in person.

I had thought about going to game four last night, upper level tickets averaged a bit over $100.

Huh? Howard jumped and Varajao pushed Howard about 8 feet while the ball was in the air. Howard didn't wrap his arms around Varajao. It wasn't his fault Varajao was under where he had jumped.

Howard's actions happened before he jumped. He pulled Varajeo off-balance so that there would be contact when he jumped. Pretty good move by Howard as I missed it at full speed and the first few times in slo-mo. The reason that Varajeo "fouled" Howard was because he was falling into him. The Howard pull shows why he was falling.

Being an NBA ref has to be a horrible job. You already have tons of people questioning your calls and then the league decides they don't even have your back by rescinding technical after technical.

I'm waiting for the league to finally come to the point of having a do over. Joey Crawford made that controversial call at 5:25 of the 4th quarter? We'll just replay the game from that point on.

How bad would the NBA product be if the players weren't so damn good?

Would it be like the WNBA?

A foul/no-foul decision is the closest call in all of sports. You can look at 100 replays and still have no consensus. You're absolutely guaranteed to have half the fans think their team was robbed several times over the course of any game.

I have no idea what the NBA can do about it (except have independent auditors of the referees, and make those results public).

I think it would be better.

Big caveat: I'm a college fan, I stopped watching the NBA years ago and am just trying to give it another shot now, also I'm going to sound like an old fart longing for the good old days here... but whatever.


My impression of the playoffs so far is that I'm watching the best athletes in the world play really shitty basketball. If they weren't so damn good they would have spent countless hours learning how to play a team game instead of learning how to take advantage of their individual abilities to the fullest.

Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying the playoffs, they are dragging me back in a little bit, but if I had any rooting interest in any of these teams I'd be pulling my hair out.

The Lakers aren't champions but act like they are, they take entire games off, allowing a yao-less rockets team to take them to 7 games.

Denver cannot complete an inbounds pass to win a game.

Orlando's best player has only one offensive move: overpower his opponent and dunk. Seriously, how good would Dwight Howard be with legitimate post skills, with a 6-10 foot jump shot? With a legit drop step, hell the NBA lets you change your pivot foot multiple times before you start your move, how hard would that be? Orlando also stops passing the ball to their best player sometimes for 8-10 minutes at a time. Even if he doesn't have any post moves, just the simple act of feeding the ball into the post gets 3 point shooters open. And missing this for a play or two is natural, but just allowing it to happen over and over and over for entire quarters? Where is the coaching? where is a floor leader pulling the team together to get them in line and back to what works?

Cleveland plays a totally different game in the final 5-10 minutes of a close contest. For three quarters they seem to understand that by playing at least a semblance of a team game they can dominate. Lebron James doesn't bring the ball up court every time, he works off the ball and he is the most dangerous player I've ever watched off the ball. No one that I've ever watched play basketball can catch the ball and attack the way Lebron can. He's unstoppable. But in a close game in the final five minutes, Lebron brings the ball up court. He makes some amazing plays, but his effectiveness is limited in a big way. He often turns into a jump shooter. How is a coach not recognizing and changing this? Where is the team game that at least sort of existed?


From my limited viewing, Boston seems to play the best basketball, but without KG, they were fucked. Orlando should have killed them but Boston playing as a team when Orlando wasn't capable of doing so allowed Boston to come a lot closer to winning the series than they should have. But even with Boston, there are long tendencies to revert to the same thing over and over and over. During the Boston-Chicago series when games were close in the final few minutes, Chicago gave the ball to Ben Gordon and he tried to create his own shot. Boston put Paul Pierce at the top of the key and he created his own shot. Boston would at least occasionally run a play, Ray Allen is amazing catching and shooting coming off a screen. Pierce would make good passes when doubled. But there were stretches where both teams ran the exact same play 5 or 6 times in a row. It was awful basketball. It was really barely basketball. It was "is Paul Pierce better than Ben Gordon"


And while I'm ranting, it takes 7 technical fouls in the playoffs to get suspended for a game? What the fuck? If you play in every round and they all go the distance you play 28 games. In what world is it ok for a player to get 6 technical fouls in 25ish games? We can argue all we want about whether the rules on taunting are good to have or not, and whether the refs are calling too many, but how in the world is it ok that Dwight Howard has 6 technical fouls in 17 games? I guess 5 now that one got rescinded. 5 technical fouls in 17 playoff games? Kobe Bryant has 5 technical fouls in 16 games. The NBA should be embarrassed that two of their biggest stars and most marketable players cannot go 4 games without doing something so egregious that they are assessed technical fouls. And both of them should have been suspended for a game long before 7 technical fouls.


Despite all of this, I'm enjoying the hell out of the playoffs. But I cannot help but see constantly that the only thing I'm enjoying are the absolutely amazing athletes on display. Their abilities to effectively play a team sport are embarrassing and abysmal.

The NBA was able to gain its popularity by having guys like Michael Jordan. If it were to go back to a team based game I don't think it would be as popular. I love basketball and consider myself to be a realistic purist and when it comes to wanting to see fundamentals I watch women's or college basketball.

The WNBA is slowly becoming more like the NBA because stars are starting to become bigger then their teams. Like Jordan before Candice Parker could eventually grow bigger then the league its self.

Its all about the stars no matter what, and it should be. However, the rise of the Bulls is well documented. Phil Jackson coming in and implementing the Triangle Offense, getting Jordan to work within a set offense and to be willing to share the load a bit more with his teammates is often credited for turning the Bulls into the dominant power that they were in the 90s. Jordan was still the superstar, and still the reason everyone watched, he still scored 28+ a game, but he did it within a set offense that forced opposing defenses to defend everyone, not just focus entirely on Jordan, and also served to get Jordan many more easy buckets without having to completely rely on his athletic abilities.

Of course the athletic plays he made and the truly amazing things that Jordan could do are what I remember first about him, and when I go to youtube to watch some Jordan clips I don't care about any of that, I want to see the incredible shots he pulled out his ass that no one else could create or make throughout his career. But... IMO, the way the Bulls dismantled the NBA over the course of winning 6 NBA titles was as dominant and as successful as it was because they had a supporting cast and had their superstar willing and able to play within a smart, team oriented offense.

If you watch women's basketball for fundamentals, then you're an idiot.

I think you are glamourizing something that isn't there. College basketball is fun, primarily for how the season is setup and the intensity the fans bring. But it's not better basketball than what you see in the NBA. Watch a college game and then follow it up with an NBA game. It's night and day.

College basketball has also declined a lot since the 80's and early 90's. It's one of the only sports that the best team from this era couldn't beat the best teams from 20-25 years ago.

I don't get this? Should I be watching to gawk at the sweaty women? Most of them look like guys with tits? Or are you trying to make some other stupid joke?

Isn't that a product of kids jumping early for that guaranteed first round money though? Back then the really good players came out after their junior seasons unlike now where marginal guys leave after their first or second year. The decline in the college game is due in large part to the NBA not having a rule similar to football in regard to their draft.

No, I'm saying that the basketball played in women's college basketball and the wnba is less fundamentally sound than any level above men's high school. What is often termed as better fundamentals is really just a lack of overall ability. Watch an entire women's basketball game played with it's best teams. The number of missed wide open layups, short to mid-range jumpers is astounding. Don't even get me started on the poor ball handling and mind-boggling bad transition passes.

Yes, but I also believe the culture of recruiting and coaching has changed in college basketball. Some of these top recruits are treated more like NBA players than college players of the day.

I understand your point I just disagree.

It sounds like you're describing skill level, rather than the presence of fundamentals. If there's a distinction. Which I think there is.

I'm pretty sure the WNBA is about how the NBA was before Wilt Chamberlain. No above the rim play...crisp two-hand chest passes.. How popular was it back then? Maybe one of our "more experienced" posters can corroborate my theory.

GET OFF MY LAWN!!

I rip the refs as much as anyone but I really beginning to believe it has less to do with the NBA and the refs and more to do with our expectations of NBA refs when compared to other officials of other sports. For example, we expect every NBA official to call every game exactly the same way and exactly as the rulebook says it should be called. On the other hand, it is perfect normal and accepted that Umpire X will give you the low strike but won't give you the high strike and then the next day Umpire Y will shrink the strike zone to a six millimeter square box. What is the difference? You could call traveling on every play in the NBA? Okay then why shouldn't we call every holding penalty on every NFL play? How the hell isn't there not an investigation into why you just have to be "in the area" of second base on a double play instead of actually touching the second base bag? Well it is the same for everybody, you say. Really? Did Greg Maddux in his prime get the same strike zone as his opponent on a given day as his opponent? Why do we as fans accept completely obvious inconsistencies from officiating in other sports but we have (and have had for at least 20 years) such heartache when it comes to the NBA.


God I feel dirty now!

If Kobe and LeBron both lose, Kobe should opt out, take a one year deal to go to Cleveland, win a title and then they can someplace together.

Those commercials are just telling us the future.

The Nuggets sure know how to self destruct in a hurry.

Actually I am impressed it took until the 4th quarter for the David Stern's refs to start calling the fouls only against the Nuggetts. Say good night Nuggetts the Lakers have been picked by Sterns to go the finals.

They really screwed Nene tonight. They made it clear from the start that they didn't want him playing much.

agreed. apparently Gasol can elbow you in the stomach and knock you over and it's a blocking foul.

this one's over...it's bullshit time.

nuggets didn't do themselves any favors going down 11pts early in the 4th though to be fair

It seems every play in the Nuggets end is a foul and every play in the Lakers end is a block

*nods*

After my last post calling out the refs it really became fucking blatant. Just a good example for all the kids out there to heed the lesson. Life is fucking unfair and stack against us all (at least those making under half mill per year) and the sooner you know that the bettewr off you will be.

IF it comes to Magic - Lakers, I hope the Magic destroy them

Good win by the Lakers.

Oh I am sure you will get your wish since The lakers aren't even close to thew best team out the west but from the look of the playoffs third. Shit I think the Magic roll them in five max!

So if the Magic win the title do they say " I'm going home?"

Is it acceptable? Maybe to MLB, but remember how they had to pressure FoxSports into how they used their K-Zone or whatever the machine is that can call balls and strikes? This is definitely an area where I think automation could help, but baseball holds on to its "traditions" deeply.

I think it's becoming next to impossible for humans to referee most professional sports, and near-instant reviews / automation (K-Zone, chipping a football, whatever) are becoming necessary as players get bigger/faster/stronger.

It's odd to me that of all sports, Tennis has been so far ahead of the curve on this one. How long have they had their sensors? 5-10 years?

I would think that as time passes technology will become more and more a part of the judging of our sports. Some will love it, some will hate it - but I think Tennis is a good example of where it seems to have had an overall positive impact.

I agree 100%. For all the talk about how it's "part of the game," the fact remains that it's a part of the game that contains many, many errors. I brought this up in the MLB thread last night...the Mets were playing the Nationals at Citi Field. The new field has a weird configuration in right field where the second deck hangs over the field by a few feet, and then underneath that, the field extends further than it does the rest of the way around.

So last night Daniel Murphy hits a really high fly ball to right, Adam Dunn goes back and appears to give up on it assuming it's gone, and then all of a sudden it just lands in front of the wall. Everyone got a bit confused, Sheffield was on 1st at the time and ended up being thrown out at home. So the umps get together and they decide they'll review it...fine. Watching the replays, it looks like there's a slight chance the ball may have grazed the front of that overhang deck and then fallen down (there is a big Subway sign which is yellow/green so you kind of lose the ball, which is the only way you could say it hit), but if it did, we're talking barely. And since the original call was no HR, it needs to be conclusive to change it. I'm a Met fan, there was no chance in hell it was conclusively a HR, and I would gather it didn't hit it at all.

Umps come out...and rule it a HR. Sorry but no. Nationals got screwed hard on that one. I don't know how to fix it so that the umpires can more equivocally determine whether the ball was a HR or not in that situation, but they have a very set in stone rule - it must be conclusive to overturn the call - and they couldn't get that part right.

that "hawkeye" thing in tennis is fucking awesome btw

The beautiful thing about it is that we'll never know til they do face off.

Once again, Bill Simmons has nailed it on the NBA.

Bill Simmons: Blowing the whistle on the NBA's flaws - ESPN

I thought the column was going to be about the ridiculous reversal of the technical foul on Howard.

Re-living that game 4 in my own head, I figure McHale would have gotten at least three games suspension for his clothesline, Bird gets at least a flagrant one, Kareem gets at least a game for the elbow, Cornbread might get a game for the hands to the throat. Oh yeah both KC Jones and Pat Riley would have gotten fined 25 grand for complaining afterwards.

This really is a tremendous article.

That was a terrible call in the first place and SVG was actually right about something when he said something to the effect of there's a problem when a guy basically tries to tackle another player going for a dunk and the one who got attacked gets a T for celebrating the basket. What Varejao did was ridiculous - a hard foul going for the basketball is one thing - to try and just tackle the guy...that's not even basketball.

What would you recommend he do when a guy like Shaq or Howard has a clear dunk? Just slap them on the wrist? The reality is you need to foul big players harder because they're bigger (I know, it's rocket science). There was no intent to injure and if I'm Howard, I'd rather have a guy try and bearhug me while I try a layup than take out my legs or swing at my head (the only 2 other realistic options to stop them).

It seems like we're at a point with the NBA where any hard foul is now deemed terrible. That's a shame. If you grab someone as they try a layup or slap at the ball hard, that's a much different situation than swiping at a guy's head or undercutting them in mid-air. Once we decide there's no distinction between the two, what's the point in taking a hard foul that's not intending to injure the player? If they have the same penalty, you might as well undercut them or smack them across the face to make 100% sure they don't make it.

Does anyone think that foul would have still been reversed if it wasn't Howard's 6th and put him at risk of an automatic suspension in the playoffs?

The fact that one has to pay to try out to become an NBA ref is unforgivable. That alone shows that there is zero interest in putting out the best product possible.

We'll find out tomorrow after he gets another technical tonight.