Kevin Garnett's postseason play prior to this year >>>>>>>>> ARod's postseason play prior to this year.

So let me get this straight, the not at all clutch KG is an NBA Champion today while the ultra clutch best player in the world Kobe Bryant was on the receiving end of a historic beatdown. I guess i'd rather be considered not clutch then.

I got to admit watching the Celtics championship ceremony was wonderful. Bill Russell is 100% class and my only regret is not being old enough to have seen him play. That exchange between Garnett and him was great and for Garnett to take the time to hug Bill in the mist of winning his first championship was amazing.

Garnett's post game interview on the court was great as well because you can literally see the weight being lifted of his shoulders. "Anything is possible," he won this for all the people who believed in him. Pierce and Allen should have shared the MVP but it was a good choice.

This team was destined win this championship I believe because they have overcome so much. Watching that last night reminded me when I coached and won the championship. I have won championships as a player but never as a head coach but the looks on the players faces who for 3 years before me only lost was special. I was always indifferent toward the Celtics but last night I gained a ton of respect for their class and grace.

Great Job.

Except it wasn't a one game blip on the radar. I showed 7 consecutive games in the postseason, which were the 7 biggest games of his career before this season, and he delivered in those games.

Noop - you're right. KG's exchange with Russell was pure-class. Literally brought tears to my eyes. As were Pierce's comments about the old guard and what this means to him.

and we're greatful for that too big man

tears to my eyes

Chris Sheridan also has a whimsical and touching piece in the Daily Dime about someone lighting up a cigar and nobody knowing who and imagining it was the ghost of Red.

quint-dola

at the rolling rally tomorrow they're having 2 flatbed trucks (one w/ dancers), and one with past celtics greats AND past championship trophies. So they're going to have the old-timers up there with 16 nba trophies...frigging sweet!

So, I was thinking about how the Celtics would have done if they didn't make these trades. Last year's team had a horrible record, but was ravaged with injuries. How would this team have done this year if they stayed healthy?

PG: Rondo/West
SG: T. Allen/Szczerbiak
SF: Pierce
PF: Gomes/Powe
C: Jefferson/Perkins

Or how about the team without the trade for Garnett...

PG: Rondo
SG: R. Allen
SF: Pierce
PF: Gomes/Powe
C: Jefferson/Perkins

My guess:

No Trades: 38 wins, lose in 1st round of playoffs
Garnett Trade only: 52 wins, lose in conference finals
Allen Trade only: 43 wins, lose in 1st round of playoffs

They don't have a title without all three of those main guys.

Kobe will scream for more help after this. He clearly can't do it alone.

Or he'll demand to be traded again.

No, I think Kobe is just a bit more mature now.

comcast sports net had an interview with Lenny Clarke (Boston comedian) on the street, live after the game, and you can tell someone wasn't quite quick enough on the "bleep" button, because the reporter asked him for his thoughts, and one of the nuggets he threw out was "guess God doesn't like rapists"

I kind of...did a double-take when that made it through...lol

And there went the hopes for every Spanish NBA fan of Gasol wearing the first champ ring for a Spanish ever, maybe next year...

Kobe= 3 championship rings
KG= 1

Kobe=rape charges
KG=no rape charges

so missing 2 must-hit free throws at the very end of Game 5 is what you call delivering? :confused:

Kodos=faggot
Hell Atlantic=awesome


and we're not discussing off-the-court transgressions or quality of character here. Rasheed Wallace is one of the biggest pricks in the league, and he has a ring too.


with the game on the line - i'm picking Kobe Bryant over KG every day of the week and twice on a saturday double header.

I guess you have something to aspire to then.

What are you talking about? I specifically mentioned that I had listed 7 consecutive playoff games he had played BEFORE this season, and your retort was to point out how bad he did in a game THIS season. If you can't argue with what is actually being said, then why are you bothering to participate in the discussion?

Brian Scalabrine = 1 championship ring (someone predicted this example earlier)
Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone = 0 championship rings

and how many rings did KG win in all those other seasons? he is known for coming up short in the big games, on the big possessions. this is not anything new. why are you trying to rewrite history?

lost in all this KG lovefest is that Paul Pierce - the real heart and soul of the team - actually elevated his game to the next level and can now be mentioned in one of those "if you can to pick one player to win a championship for you, who would you pick?" type of questions.

Cartoon Network already tried and failed. Boston is on alert for those kinds of tricks.

:D

KG's not a guy that carries a team on his back. I don't know why that's some kind of knock against him, that's 99% of the league.

He's a superior defensive player. Combine that with a superior offensive player like Pierce, and that's a good start for a team.

Just like Kevin Garnett will ask to be traded?

Then you'll contend that Kobe never asked Shaq to be traded right?

I'm assuming you see my point...

So you mention the Game 7, but not that conference finals?

Look, I think KG is terrific, but he has never shown himself to be the "get on my back and let's go" guy. He always performs consistently. That's why his numbers in the postseason are essentially the same as regular season. He does what he does, and he does it well.

But he didn't get the no big game rep from me. This is something that has been pinned on him for some time now by people who pay a lot more attention than you or I do.

You try and do something in a game when a very good defensive team is throwing everything at you, and your teammates all decide to suck.

Is there a problem with my posts that people for some reason can only read part of them? I listed his point totals and rebounds for all 6 games of that conference finals.


Oh come on, that's a cop out. If we just concede to the conventional wisdom, then what's the point of even having this discussion in the first place? Joe Morgan pays alot more attention to baseball than I do, but I can still say with confidence that he's said some of the dumbest things about the sport ever.

Why can this excuse be used for Kobe and not KG?

+1

This post actually encapsulates pretty well my impression.

Because none of it is true with KG.

A) The Lakers are not a good defensive team
B) The Lakers did not throw everything at KG
C) KG's teammates don't suck

What I meant was before this series, when he was with Minnesota. He doesn't need an excuse for this series, because he and his teammates kicked LA's ass, including a dominant performance by KG in the clincher.

Sorry, I missed your post of those stats. I don't keep larrymcg421 posts open in separate browser windows for easy recall. ;)

I am just saying he isn't the go-getter type with a killer instinct. Pierce and Allen displayed that much more than he did, and he has a career of generally not singlehandedly elevating his team to victory.

Maybe he did well in that conference finals. Maybe he showed up last night. Okay, if he's got that killer instinct, how come the T'Wolves continued to suck every other year? McHale is bad, but come on, no one's that bad. How come KG didn't carry this team past a miserable Hawks team in less than seven games, or an overmatched Cavs team?

But he didn't do it in Minnesota either. 2004 is one year. He was drafted by the Wolves in 1996.

I think it's silly to compare KG to Kobe, Pierce, Jordan, DWade, LeBron or any other guard/SF who penetrates and thus can take a game over in the final minutes. The only guy in the league you could compare him to is Tim Duncan (maybe Shaq, but if we're talking last 2 minutes, I think Garnett wins there), and he wasn't able to take over games once Manu Ginobili was injured. Post guys rely on teammates to get them the ball, and thus don't have the opportunity to take over games like a swingman/PG can.

Also, I thought KG did eventually ask to be traded/at least acceded to it after Glen Taylor came out and blamed him for the franchise's inability to win.

Except for those pesky years when he wasn't with the Yankees of course.

I'll bet you both this won't happen, at least not this offseason.

I know it's easier for some to hate, though, so believe what you want.

Yup, I agree 100% with this post, too.

And Pierce is awesome. I always knew he was good, but he opened my eyes this postseason.

Um, it was in the post that you quoted.


Why is it KG's fault for these lapses? You give Allen and Pierce credit, but they were on the same team that went 7 games against the Hawks and Cavs. And neither of them have elevated their teams any further than KG prior to this postseason.

And what do you mean, no one is that bad? No one is bad enough to not build a championship contender over a 10 season span? Are you kidding me? Ithink lots of people are that bad, and it's a long list where McHale is certainly near the top, especially with Isiah out on his ass

You're missing my entire point there. You made excuses for Kobe not delivering. Why don't those same exuses apply to KG's Minnesota career? Kobe got it done three times with Shaq. Plese tell me a omparable player that KG got to play with.

Because Ray Allen was jacking up shots and shooting like 15% those series.


As for the T-Wolves, between '97-'98 and '03-'04, they won between 44 and 58 games every year (not counting the lockout). KG was playing with luminaries like Stephon Marbury, Latrell Spreewell and Wally Sczerbiak as outside players. '03-'04 when he had Sam Cassell and Troy Hudson they won 58 and made it to the Conference Finals, where Cassell was injured and couldn't play. Meanwhile, once Shaq left, Kobe was glorified for taking the Lakers to 34, 45, 42 wins in a conference roughly equal in strength.

He had some great postseason games, but didn't win a championship. He had a lot more bad games, and still didn't win a championship. Also, I certainly hope no one would argue that KG has had supporting casts that even approach the talent that A-Rod has got to play with.

I think A-Rod is close to a perfect comparison. Neither of them really raised their game in the postseason, but the extent of their "struggles in the clutch" were magnified by the media and fans who latched on to the meme."Take this down," said O'Neal. "My name is Shaquille O'Neal and Paul Pierce is the motherfucking truth. Quote me on that and don't take nothing out. I knew he could play, but I didn't know he could play like this. Paul Pierce is the truth." - March 15, 2001

Kobe's postseason numbers are actually worse than his regular season numbers:

Regular: 25.0/5.3/4.6

Post: 24.3/5.0/4.6

No, I would say those are pretty close to the same, too. The difference in both's numbers from their regular season this year isn't much.

If you don't think Kobe tries to take the ball at the end of games, though, you must have only watched the Eastern Conference playoffs this year. And in 2007. And in 2006. And in 2004. And in 2003. And in...well, you get the picture.

Honestly not sure how to compare. It's two different sports. Texas would probably be the closest comparison, with the M's and Yanks more on par with KG on the Celtics.

Point is, ARod didn't become some horrible clutch player until the NY media got a hold of him.

BTW, was talking playoffs, which is why I don't mention 2005, but of course, he tried to take over games then, too (just games with less meaning).

Or until after the 2004 playoffs when A-Rod had an OPS over 1.000. A-Rod career postseason OPS - .844 (1.024 in the LCS) Derek Jeter career postseason OPS - .846 (.744 LCS .809 WS) Thanks for agreeing with me, it's mostly a media creation.

Also love the argument that the definition of a clutch player is someone who takes shots at the end of games. Ummm.... what if they miss them? Also, it's harder for post guys to do it. For example, Bill Russell probably never look to take the ball on offense at the end of games, is he not clutch?

good point

Kobe will never ever win and this has been true since he became a star in the league around 99/00. If he scores 25 points in a half and his team is tied, people will say that he doesnt get his teammates involved. If Kobe has 11 points and 7 assists going into the fourth quarter, people will say Kobe isn't trying to assert himself in the game.

But then you have games like game three was where Kobe was the only Laker doing anything (well, Sasha too) and he barely gets the praise when he basically won that game for the Lakers because his teammates show up. But no one even mentions how brilliant he was in that game.

Interesting numerology bit from BSG.

It's a sad fact that NBA fans and pundits have been groomed to value a player's worth in clutch more than a player's intangiable worth. We may not like it, but it is the way it is.

Is it unfair that Garnett's shortcomings are always highlighted over his positive talents? Not really, since everyone, specially Kobe, is constantly scrutinized under the microscope anyway.

Kobe's main criticism will be the fact that he either hogs the ball too much when he scores a lot, or fails to take over a game when he doesn't score enough. He can't win either way, but he will constantly be seen as either due to his status as one of the game's elite.

The same way for Garnett. Despite doing everything he can humanly during an entire game, he will always be scrutinized for disappearing during the final minutes of any game.

When you're considered as a franchise player, the fans and writers will expect nothing less of you, it always comes with the teritorry.

Indeed. Kobe, or the all the Lakers, for that matter, were simply outmatched by the excellent Celtics defense during this series., plain and simple.

Kobe. Because his stats are essentially the same vs a great defensive team and people are calling them terrible. Kobe is the greatest player of his generation and he can never win simply because he isn't MJ. You can just look at how many times people have said that over the course of these finals.

Nobody's calling Kobe terrible, and noboby's saying that Garnett is a better overall player than Kobe. Are you upset that people aren't kissing his ass enough? Why do you care? This sounds like that whole thing Boston fans get criticized for when people aren't giving the Patriots enough "props" or whatever, and every negative Patriot comment is "hating".

All I know is that the Celtics as a team are better than the Lakers as a team. The Lakers fans can win their arguments about Kobe as an individual all they want, I could care less. I'm also glad the NBA player I dislike the most is also on the NBA team I dislike the most, in the city I dislike the most - that's convienient.

Didn't Kobe basically run Shaq out of town? I read excerpts from Phil Jackson's book in one of Bill Simmons' articles, so that's all I really know about it... but from those quotes, it really seems like Kobe deserves the blame for trying to carry a team. I respect him and think he's one of the best players right now (along with LeBron), but I don't like him.

Next year should be interesting with Bynum back though, provided Bynum plays at the same level.

Kobe is a Grade-A Douchebag. A very talented Grade-A Douchebag, but nonetheless a Grade-A Douchebag. If I had to pick one guy to play with from those two teams in the Finals, it would be Garnett. Kobe would be about 5th or 6th on the list.

Since Bill Simmons was brought up, I was reminded of one of his past ideas. For the Olympics this summer, instead of throwing together a team of stars for marketing purposes why not send the Celtics with a couple tweaks? Throw Chris Paul or Deron Williams on as the 2nd PG in place of Cassell, give them Dwight Howard down low for Big Baby or PJ Brown and leave the rest of the team as is? Maybe even put Kobe or LeBron on if they wouldn't try to take it over and show it's their team.

That team, with their chemistry, defensive rotations down and guys like Posey/House/Allen who are willing to take a back seat and hit open 3's wouldn't win the gold and do better than throwing an all-star team together 2 weeks in advance?

The level of hate against Kobe is sad. I am guessing this is because of his supposed rape charge?

I didn't like him even before that charge. There's just something about him that makes me not like him.

Again, I will suggest that Tim Duncan is a better player.

I won't even bother but I can understand disliking something (i.e. my disdain for the Florida Gators) I can't recall hating a person though but I could be wrong.

Shaq.

Same for me. I don't know why it is a supposed rape charge. He bought the primary witness off. Before the rape charge, I actually liked him and rooted for him.

Duncan and Shaq both have 4 championships -- maybe they're both better than Kob-me.

Yep. He went from just a mild dislike (but respected) to my most hated player in the league.

I don't think he raped her.

I like the idea a lot, except I'd send the championship team as is, and only replace players who were injured or wouldn't go.

They've tried to change things up by requiring 3 year commitments on the team but it's still a mess because half the team inevitably pulls out. They haven't even reached a finals in 3 straight international tournaments. Maybe there will be bigger changes if they don't get a medal this summer.

:+1:

And what happens if it was a team like the Spurs who won this year? What would you have done? Or even the Lakers? Why pick the winner of this years NBA championship instead of previous years? What about the team who got you qualified into the Olympics to begin with? Or the team that won the Worlds?

Bought the primary witness off? Huh?

Yeah why not send the Knicks! They won a title in 1973!

They haven't won the World's since '94. They'll love to send the same exact team that qualified, (and same team from tournament to tournament), but it's never panned out like that.

Gave her a presumably large sum of money to settle a civil suit. Anyone would have to be naive to think that this didn't play a part in her actions and lack of cooperation in the criminal trial.

Dola -

Here is an article about it. Most of the legal experts agree that Kobe bought her off:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...-settles_x.htm

She never wanted to testify in the court case and I would assume the longer her case went out, the more it would have had too many holes and probably hampered her Civil Case to the point where Kobe might have won the Civil Suit.


So I suppose it would be naive, but in the same sense to think that Pete Carroll had no idea that Bush was getting money...

Revisionist history, likely slanted by your Laker colored glasses. She didn't want to testify because Kobe paid her off as soon as possible and because he had his people releasing stuff to the media that shouldn't have been released about her sexual history which is supposed to be protected by rape victim shield laws.

As far as the 2nd point, Bush's accuser keeps delaying his deposition so who knows what really happened, but I'm willing to accept that it is possible that Bush received money and it's possible Pete knew that he did.

I don't need to say more

Mucho Agreed.

The funny thing about this that people still don't get, especially outside of LA or people who just want to hate Kobe and don't care about what's really going on, was that Shaq was gone because of Shaq, his money demands and his unwillingness to back down against the team or to go out of his way in any way for the team (like, say come into camp in game shape, or work on his FTs). The guy acted like a petulant child for a couple years after leaving LA, constantly taking snipes at everyone Laker, but do people hate on him? No, of course not, he's St. Shaq, he makes me laugh, he must be a good guy, right? Right? :rolleyes:

And I can call those people who allow themselves to be led that way to be the bleating sheep they are. Fair (and true).

Relax, obviously if SA or LA won, it wouldn't work because of the foreign starters, but it's still a fun exercise. Ask yourself legitimately who would win games between the Celtics and a USA all-star team (sans KG and Pierce). Clearly the all-star team would be more talented, but I think the Celtics would win most because they know how each other play and they know their roles. You can only have so many guys like Kobe, Pierce and Carmelo before a guy like James Posey would be better for the team. Shucks, if PR led by Carlos Arroyo and the UMass backcourt from 1996 (Padilla and Travieso) can do it because they play together often, why wouldn't the NBA champions?

This doesn't even get into the selection issues USA Basketball has. I mean, they're really going to pick Jason Kidd at PG over Deron Williams or Chauncey Billups? Tayshaun Prince is one of the first 5 picked? Tyson Chandler isn't on it despite his phenomenal defense/rebounding and great chemistry with Paul on pick and rolls?

Okay, so I watched for maybe 30 secs before I stopped it. Does this continue be a masturbatory video or does it ever get interesting to anyone outside the Boston area?

I liked the video, but the Bird moment Garnett's talking about (where he jumps up and down grabbing his head) was actually after winning the 1981 conference finals.

I'm just here to say that I'm a Memphis Grizzlies fan, and you people had better not talk shit about Hakim Warrick.

Thought this was funny. Matt Damon showing his Celtic Green in LA.

Damon has always been the man.

Hahaha.

He's so hot.

Probably shoves those mantlers up his ass.

I heard Ellen Page's "roommate" reams her from behind using a strap-on.

I am so out of this thread! What a meanie.

fap fap fap

Did I miss something?

Ellen Page is my favouritest celebrity in the world.