Fair enough observation. I should be a bit more clear about the context. I was making a note about the ability to do hybrid rules.

Maximum Football is set up to have no punting for the indoor game, but he wanted to do it for a hybrid game with an outdoor American field.

You wanna do it on the moon?

Upon further review of the picture, it looks like Milt Stegall is not the person in green-and-white in the middle of the picture. He's the guy shoved way to the right, catching what appears to be a 10-yard-fight style pass.

Wait, what did I miss. How come the Winnipeg Blue Bombers are being mentioned??

Correct.

He is in the middle of the field in the graphic and is not in the background or foreground. He is in the middle depth wise.

I believe Antmeister thought the caption was meant for the player in the foreground, which is actually understandable for anyone who is not a CFL fan.

I admit, Marauders is pretty good. He almost has me thinking this is a game I might want to play.

Okay -- now that I've managed to spot the football in these pix -- how the hell does Andy Fantuz catch that pass? Also, are any passes thrown that are not straight bullet passes? Please don't answer -- it would violate your NDA.

I totally want to play it, and start a demented dynasty. It's not worth $50 for me to do that, though.

For those clambering to see in game results, this is a custom league I made that plays NFL style rules and level. All teams run unique offenses (my own pro-Flexbone, 1 back offenses, normal pro back, 4 WR sets, etc..) and defenses (34, 43, and 42) and had players distributed in an initial draft.

A couple things you will notice is the plays/game is up and I think this is more related to NFL rules for time running during incompletions as compared to MaxFB which is setup for old college rules where the clock stops on an incompletion regardless of the time. Sacks are up as well but not alarmingly and will be mentioned below.


In the passing game completion % are down but sacks, TDs, and yds/cmp are up. All signs that most of the playbooks I am using favor deeper routes than common in the NFL.

Running game looks solid aside from the increased number of plays as mentioned before.


It is only 1 game short of three weeks into the DFL season, so some of this might be just noise but I think you can see this is far from the laughing stock it was originally portrayed in this thread. Note: the NFL results are through 14 weeks.

Nah, they cut him with .003 seconds left in the game

#DIV/0! 0 must be a Canadian rating.

Nice to see offensive and defensive linemen getting a call out on the rushing stat sheet.

There is still a pretty significant difference in the stats. Yardage is up about 33% through three games over the NFL average, while the number of plays is only up about 20%. I don't think that the number of plays is affected quite as much by the stopping of the clock issue, as there are only about 5 more passes a game, but there are a little over 17 more rushes a game. Rushes are what eat up the clock.

But as you said, this is only a 3 game sample. It will be interesting to see how things play out over a whole season, then multiple seasons.

And we still have more fumbles lost than actual fumbles. Still confused on how that could happen.

The 33% yardage issue might be contributed to Harderman who is averaging 216 rush yards per game for Tucson. He's on his way to a 3500 yard season if he can keep that up.

I don't know but according to his NFL numbers it happens in real life too. :confused:

I am also amazed at the sack totals considering in just 3 games, 1 team has been 29 sacks, another has 22. And considering the sack totals weren't shown on the passing chart, I bet the teams that allowed the most sacks are the ones with the top rated passers.

Plus I am still confused why the game can't round to the nearest tenth for various players. Or is this just a result of someone's spreadsheet.

as the person referenced to, I would like to comment. Yes, I would like to play 11 man outdoor football using NFL style rules with no punts. 4 plays to get a first down or turn the ball over (aside from scoring via TD's or FG's). It doesn't matter why I want to do this, I just do.

I had it working almost exactly the way I wanted it to, then changed a setting or two and made the game unplayable. I haven't gone back and tried to fix it yet only because I don't have the amount of time necessary to devote to setting the league up the way I want and playing out every game... which is a necessity since the quick sim doesn't appear to use any of the custom league settings.

I realize most everyone in this thread could care less about Maximum Football and would rather bash it based on the results and reviews of the initial release version. That's your opinion and nothing any says or shows you will ever change that. I just hope new people to the game will give it a fair chance (which a demo would immensely help with) before dismissing it and jumping on the bash MF bandwagon.

As it is right now, the game is still a long way from being a viable option (for me at least) to simulate a football league. I enjoy messing around with it, but the amount of time necessary to set up a league and make tweaks to get the game to play the way you want and give the results you want is just too much for me right now. I understand because of the many different styles of play and the game's attempt to cater to everyone that it has to be like that (ie, take an extended amount of time to set up and dial-in to the user expectations). Most people, as can be seen here, don't have the patience, or wherewithall to do so. That doesn't mean the game should be summarily dismissed and ridiculed. It can realistically and more importantly accurately sim any real world league, if the user is willing to put an enormous amount of time into the game and changing/tweaking its settings.

I would say version 3 will be a huge improvement with version 4 or 5 (if it makes it that far with all the disappointingly negative reviews) being the version that will most likely appeal to the largest amount of people. Every game has to start somewhere, unfortunately for MF it choose to be everything to everyone instead of putting a solid game out and then introducing more and more features and customizations in each release version.

Now, all that said, I would recommend MF to anyone that wants a graphical coaching sim and is willing to put time into the game and accept and deal with the growing pains that go along with a game really in its infancy, but that is growing each and every day...

I seam to hear this a lot.
Could you post some screen shots of these stats please?

In the current incarnation, it will not be able to realistically or accurately sim the NCAA. As I mentioned a few posts up, the hashmarks are in the same location as US Professional, and it is not possible to design option plays where the ball is pitched. The locations of the hashmarks is huge to the college game, especially where play design is concerned, as blocking schemes change greatly depending on how close to the sidelines the snap will be. And not being able to pitch the ball basically hamstrings an option offense. You might be able to tweak the settings to get stats close to what the NCAA produces, but the way the stats are generated won't reflect how they happen IRL.

not at this time. As I indicated, I am not actively playing the game because I don't have the amount of time necessary to do so. In addition, my way of playing (ie, with no punts on a 100 yard field) makes it impossible to compare to any real world league since there are no real life leagues like the one I would be playing. I can tell you I was happy with the results, but that is just my opinion, yours may differ. That is kind of the crux of the game and argument. Everyone sets up their leagues and more importantly playbooks differently so everyone will have different results. It is up to each user to decide if their generated results are close enough or need to be adjusted.

Now that being said, there are already two posts here that have compared generated results to the NFL. There may be more posts at the Max Football forums or in other football game forums. Exactly how many posts comparing generated results to the NFL are needed for you to form an opinion?

isn't the point of a sim to produce realistic/accurate stats?!? Yes, you can be appalled the game doesn't move the hashmarks, but the fact of the matter is that you can get results inline with NCAA statistics.

I am obviously not as concered about hashmark placement as you are and therefore would have no problem playing or participating in a college league run using MaxFootball. It appears to be a very huge point for you though, so I would recommend you not get the game until the hashmarks are differentiated between college and pro leagues. I would hope your seeming disdain for the game is based on more than just hashmark placement.

I don't think this is true at all. It is funny bashing a bad game, but if the game is shown to be good or drastically improved, then our opinions will change.

Yes, as I also mentioned, the types of plays you can run does not mirror what are run in real life college games. The hashmarks are a (big) part of it, just as having a 110 yard field is crucial to the CFL. Since one of the big differentiators of MaxFB is the ability to create plays, not being able to create a big portion of a college option offense is definitely a sticking point for me.

As for the quote about the stats, how those stats are derived is just as if not more important as the final numbers. We had this discussion a few pages back regarding when a game is simmed, the longest run is capped at 15 yards and the longest pass is capped at 40 yards. Take for example two rushers. They each ran 20 times for 100 yards in a game. Runner A carries 5 yards each of his 20 carries. Runner B carried 19 times for 1 yard, with one 81 yard run. The end numbers are the same, but the paths to generate them are very different.

It seems that from the stats we've seen from the game, the engine is going off of straight averages, and does not appear to use more complex math like Standard Deviation.

or rounding in some cases. :D

do you mean the quick sim engine? I do not think any of the stats posted were generated using the quick sim engine, but instead by letting the cpu play itself. In that case there are no averages used, just player ratings and "real world" physics. Remember, playing a game out uses physics and not stats to generate play results.

the posts I've read seem to indicate people are basing their opinions on initial release version of the game and dismiss the improvements that have been with subsequent versions. I really hope you are right though.

Which 2 posts are you reffering to?

I mean either the quick sim or in-game engine. You'd expect the results from both engines to fall along a STDDEV curve that mirrors the yardage gained from plays in the CFL/NFL/NCAA/AFL, depending on which you were most closely trying to approximate.

AAACK! Don't say the "S" word in this thread, man!

Have you seen the tons of posts asking for screenshots that document the improvements?

keeping up with the thread a bit better now..it's only been 3 months since my last post in here.

yes, I've seen some of those posts and I've seen screens posted the last couple days.

I'm not trying to be a MaxFootball apologists or champion. The game has serious faults as some games due when first introduced. MF probably tried to do to much all at once instead of doing less, but doing it better and then introducing new features and customizations after the solid frame had been put in place. I think it is moving in the right direction and would hope more people would recognize the game is not everyone's cup of tea and has faults, but is working to improve them and does get better after every release. Now, I wasn't here when the developer and his wife tried to defend himself and the game. I can understand why that immediately turned people and why some won't ever give the game a chance and will mock it unmercifully. It would be nice if everyone could look at it now through a new set of eyes and form an opinion on the game rather than the previous history, innuendo, rumors, and downright falsehoods that exist in this thread. Yes, I realize MaxFootball, its developer, and its publisher make that difficult by not providing a demo. All serious questions and comments on the MaxFootball site seem to get addressed and answered, even if the answer isn't what one wants to hear.

Anyway, I think I've stated my opinion and I'm not really trying to change anyone else's. I think it would be great if everyone could play the game, understand what it is trying to do, and then make informed decisions instead of going off screenshots and the postings of others.

Obviously I'm not a regular here, but will try to check back often and reply to anything directed towards me or to posts that I may have experience with and can give a semi-qualified opinion on.

Sir, if you can point us to a demo to try out, then it would probably get less ridicule, but to tell people to pay $50 (is it still $50?) for a game to see if they like it is pretty much crazy if you can't provide a solid game. People keep mentioning that it has improved and the stats that are shown to us still show errors. We point them out and it gets ignored or we are told that is with an older version of the beta.

And you are telling us yourself that you shelved the game because you don't have the time to play this game due to the amount of time it take just to set up a game to play. Don't you see that as a problem? Why are you doing the work that a programmer should be doing so that you can take the plays and options you want and play a freaking game. More people are taking more time trying to set up a realistic game than actually playing it and that is why hardly anyone is showing stats. It doesn't make sense that the game should already have default playbooks that give you balanced gameplay to begin with.

And as much as Madden gets ridiculed for its unrealistic gameplay, it can actually record statitistics a hell of a lot better than the current iteration of this game. Plus you can actually play with a real schedule, don't have to worry about frame rate killing your stats, and don't see teleporting objects. Plus I can get that game for $35 now or wait until the end of the year and get it for $10.

Couple clarifications:
Its 1 game short of 4 weeks into the season not 3.
I took the outputted league stats and added avg./league and avg./yard. Some of the stats were calculated by me (including the yds/att) to demonstrate similarities with the NFL. So if you see round off errors or wrong significant digits, blame it on me.

Fumble avg. 1.1/game and Fumbles lost 0.8/game. This seems fine to me.

The OL, DL, WR, TE I suspect are rushing yards after fumble recoveries.

Hardeman is the single back on 4 WR offense. Tuscon is 4-0 and destroyed patsy Des Moine in week 2 when he compiled 303 yards and 4 TD on 36 carries. In week 4 he got held in check (22att/73yds) in a barn burner against 3-1 San Antonio that Tuscon squeaked out 27-24. DB, Vanhaitsma, saved the game recording 3 picks in the same game.

to the best of my knowledge, the download version of the game has always been $39.99 US. If you want a CD, then the game is $49.99 US.

As I said in at least my last two posts, there is not a demo, but should be.

Also, because of the almost unlimited league configurations and rules, it is impossible for the game to meet everyone's expectations out of the box. Some people will like the default settings/playbooks. Others, will want more and have to work to get it.

I am only posting here because it appears to me people are bashing the game "because it is the cool thing to do" here. Hardly anyone has any actual on-hands experience and those that do are either defending the game or found it too complicated or time-consuming to set up and quit and now just bash it because they didn't get it.

Everyone can have an opinion and base that opinion on actual game play or heresay or whatever. I am posting just to offer an alternative view and hopefully help those just learning about MaxFootball to hear some good things about it and be willing to learn more and give it a chance. It most certainly is not for everyone and as mentioned even I don't play regularly. It still has some good points and has potential to be a good game. I don't know if it will ever reach that potential, but I'd rather support it and try to help it get there than just come here and bash it in the name of fun.

Here some more. Tuscon's week 3 victory over Rochester (my team) that runs a 3 RB Flexbone adjusted to be more of a pro 4 WR set. Though Rochester did every thing right they failed to pull out the win as they don't have the downfield passing game to catchup in the second half.

Okay, got it. It probably has always been that way.

Sure its true that some people won't like the default playbooks, but it you don't have base playbooks/rule sets to start with, how is anyone gonna play it out of the box. Are you saying this game was never meant for someone who just wants to load a game and play a few games of football?

This comments strikes me as funny because everytime this thread had almost died and had been long forgotten, Marauders pops in here (of all threads) and talks nonsense. Instead of starting a new thread, he comes to the thread. So if it is a fresh start you are looking for, why do people continually write to this thread?

And fine, I get that, but for someone to come in as if the game has dramatically improved and is finally out of beta stages (*cough* Marauders) is not fairly representing the stage the game is still at. And as far as being potentially good, that has been said for years by the people who continue to support it, yet to this day the same thing is still being said. When it reaches its potential, come back to this thread then, but right now, it is still not there.

I'm not saying that at all and not sure how you got to that conclusion from my posts. It is entirely possible to load the game and play a few games of NFL, CFL, or Indoor Football-style games. You will most likely have fun doing so. The problem for me seems to come when I want to put a league together and play several seasons. To get the type of results I want, I have to give each team different playbooks, different strategy profiles/settings, tweak the league rules, and modify some of the core game elements most people wouldn't even know how to find. Some would be very content running the game with the default settings and enjoying it. Some would spend several hours tweaking and setting up leagues to get the results they want, and others will play the default settings, not like the results, turn the game off and post what a crappy game it is without working to make it better. Not that anyone should have to work to make the game enjoyable to them.

If the quick sim engine was the same or produced the same results as the in-game engine, I would probably be several seasons into a league right now. But having to play out each game CPU vs CPU to get results is not possible for me right now. I have no reservations recommending it with the caveat that it can be a complex game to configure and use. Then again, the default settings may be exactly what you are looking for which would make the game seem less complex and still enjoyable.

And that's my point. The default playbooks don't even give a semblance of realism either. And don't get me wrong, I do realize it is much harder to tackle this problem in a 3D game.

All I am saying is that you are having he same issues here as you do in Madden, but there are way more headaches. The schedule it creates is crap. It doesn't have any draft, free agency, or trading options. It's graphics don't even compare. It doesn't record stats properly. You have to use a database to customize options (so you better hope you customers have Access available). There are still no interception return yards. There is only one type of pass.

The list goes on and the only difference is that I can customize my problems. That is why I can understand why you shelved it for a while. While the gameplay is harder to tweak, there are so many other things around it that are broken that makes the gameplay less worthwhile and I believe that is why some of the more dedicated user base has disappeared off the message board over there.

1) I disagree. The schedule is basic, but correct for most league configurations and can be edited to reflect your preferences.
2) It does have a draft and free agency. AI teams do sign and release players to fit their roster to the team profile. There is no trade AI, but I think even Madden at one point had no AI trades. It might have been a different game I'm thinking about, but it is not uncommon.
3) True, but you have one man developing the game not 100's and a dedicated graphic design staff. I enjoy the graphics and think they are more than adequate and quite good considering.
4) There is only one bug I know of that adds penalty yards to rushing stats. Otherwise, I am not aware of any other problems recording stats.
5) this is one of the game's best features. It opens up the game and allows it to be easily edited by 3rd parties. Check the mod forum to see some of the utitilities and editors that have been made. As the fan base for the game grows (hopefully), there will only be more and more editors and utilities available because the game stores data in customizable databases. Also, you can use the free database software in OpenOffice to access and manipulate the game databases. There is even a guide on the site instructing you how to do that. I myself have used it to add different footballs to the league options and change several league settings. I have to reiterate how good of a thing this is.
6) do you mean that are kept track of and reported? David has added a bunch of defensive stats to v2.2 (currently in beta). I believe this is one that is now tracked and found in a report. It may already be in the game, I just don't recall seeing it and don't have the game available at the moment.
7) This is not true in arcade mode. You can have lob passes, bullet passes and in between. I can not accurately comment if coach games have varying pass types since its been awhile since I played and I was focusing on other areas of the game.

I'm not trying to argue, rather inform. I'm not sure what you are basing your information on, but it seems to be incorrect. Some of the above is just opinion and will vary from person to person, but most of it is already in the game as I've mentioned above.

A real draft, where you pick whoever you want with your choice and not "in this round we select QB's" or whatever it was MF originally shipped with? And real free agency, with a salary cap and everything? Or just, "hey, here's some players not on any team that you can 'sign' with no concern for finances"?

The graphics are worse than what you would see with 3D football games 10 years ago. And yeah, I get it that it's one guy developing the game, but why does that earn him some kind of pass? I'm still being asked to pay real money for this game - why would I buy this and not find an old copy of Front Page Sports football and run it in emulation mode on my current PC, for a fraction of the cost?

The time is customizable.

sttfrk, you may want to check your password, as it seems the Iraqi Information Minister has accessed your account.

Seriously, that's one of the most absurd claims in a thread chock full of Marauder's absurdities.

What do you mean by basic? If I had 31 teams in the league, will it properly create a schedule? From what I remember, odd number teams did not work with the game scheduler.

So are you telling me that players have contracts? Are you telling me their is a new pool of college players available after every season? Is there a free agent signing period and when does the draft occur? Plus if you play high school or college football, do the players leave after 4 years or stay on forever?


This is one tired excuse. You are reading whatever Marauders feeds you. There are a slew of independent developers out there who design 3D games. In fact, look at the husband and wife team that created Mount and Blade or check out Galactic Civilizations. My point wasn't that he needed to have that level of talent. My point was that if Madden gives you the same thing, but with less of a headache, why would someone want to spend $30 more for it (if they buy Madden at the end of football season).

More fumbles lost than actual fumbles. 2 point conversion record improperly. And this one:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1642748

Yes it great for those that know how to use a database. And by the way, I wrote short instructions on how to use it with OpenOffice and I don't even own the game. This was back in March 2006:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1080756

The stat is there. It just shows 0 on all the ones we have seen.

And the real kicker is why do a majority of you guys play CPU vs. CPU to simulate games? If simming the game is that bad, don't you see that as a problem for those trying to create their own league. Why do you want to waste all of that time just to get to the next game in the season? And let's say I created a 32 team league. How long would it take for me to play all those CPU vs. CPU games before I got to play the next game in the schedule. 10 hours? 8?

I just have a hard time making sense why you think this is worth anyone's time who only have maybe 1 or 2 hours max to "get away".

I think it has something to do with that metric conversion thingie

The one man vs. 100+ game designers thing is getting old.

1) That has no impact on my $ spent to fun had ratio. If the game sucks, it sucks. I don't care if it took 1400 people to design it or 1.

2) I'm not getting a discount because he's one man. If he said, "It's only $10 because I know my graphics are substandard," it may have some merit. But he's not.

3) Bugs like "adds penalty yards to rushing stats" are kind of important for a sim. You realize this, right? I mean, you are admitting the graphics engine is flawed, but then act as though a "stat" bug is easily dismissed. If you want me to play the game for the terrific stats, say so and I'll look at the accuracy and amount of stats to base my decision off of. If you are going to tell me to base the game off of the way it plays in arcade mode, than I'm going to compare it to the other products on the market. NCAA, Madden, NFL2K, NFL Street, etc.

I already know what's coming: "It's a combination and you have to live with certain flaws with both graphics and stats" I'll respond to that now: No, I don't. It's an inferior product and until the major issues are fixed, it's one that isn't worthy of the money I'd have to spend on it.

As far as I recall, human team owners have always been able to draft their players live. One can set up a team profile for the draft, but that is only used by computer teams and human teams that wish not to select each round.


David has stated from day one that the first public release will not have GM features like salary cap and negotiations. Complaining about that is like complaining about FOF for not having 3D game graphics.

The player database allows for future expansion into the GM and commissioner areas, and it is open for third party developers, but the game was never meant to have these features at this time.

Maximum Football does have a draft and training camp.


How many 3D football games were out in 1997? I understand your point, but you are exaggerating here.


FBPro did not have salaries and GM features either. One could get them from Gelat for $45, and one still can, but why should you pay Gelat $45 for tools that should be in the game when they are just tools?

FBPro is dead. It will never get better. It will never look better. It will never play better. Its AI had huge flaws, and the computer could be duped into stupid trades. Those are nice features for exploitation, but they are not great for a game that will never again be patched to fix them.

Nevertheless, if you would rather not purchase Maximum Football at this time, that is your choice. I understand your points, and I am helping work toward those goals with my own efforts, as are other community members on the Matrix Games board. Perhaps we will see you there in the future, or perhaps we will not.

For 40 bucks, you have four real footbal game options, let's look at them, shall we.

1. Madden- The mecca of arcade style 3d football. With some tweaks, it actually can give you a decent realistic game of football. It can, however, let you play as your favorite NFL player, or even youself. It gives you a decent franchise mode. It features very good animation and sound. Byfar the biggest footbal game in history.

2. Front Office Football- While not a work of art to look at, if you ever wanted to know exactly what a GM goes through, then this game is for you. Playable out of the box in it's first year, and a one man operation.

3. Second and Ten- A replayers wet dream. Every NFL Season since 1950, and the entire AFL run. It also features a college version for roughly the same price that features roughly 700 teams. Not graphically driven, but users have made a number of mods that give fields, player pictures, logos, helmets and the like. Playable and realistic from day one with NO tinkering and a two person operation. Offers free updates for life too.

4. Maximum Football- Can play pretty much any style of football you want. Offers a physics based engine similar to FBPRO. Not real great on stats. Not real great on graphics. Probably simulatesthe CFL better than anything else, but with no demo, no current scfreen shots, or tangible evidence of reality out of the box, who could tell.

Only Madden is a corporate effort. Games two and three are small operations, taken some lumps, but provide an experience that has made the investment well worth it for most users and have been quite open in getting the simulation part of football right
.

What you fail to see over and over and over again is that MF doesn't offer anything that you can't find elsewhere. The graphics are several generations old. Despite actually claiming that you can play ay style of footbal, you certainly have not come anywhere near close to proving that playing the game straight out of the box. There is no demo, unlike the other three games. Lets get real, there is no way that I could even come close to replaying a season using MF.

Game developers such as David have a history of promising the moon and then not being able to deliver. Some have learned and refined their approach, others have crashed and burned. Maybe, just maybe, if MF was offered as the arcade game that it really is, the critisism will come down a bit and you and Wintervalley just might actually be taken seriously. But as long as you promise everything and deliver nothing, why shouldanyone put down money on a game that as far as we can tell delivers nothing that it promises except being able to play football the way you want.

This is getting to the point of you guys being trollish. Deliver what is being asked here or stay away until you canshow what is being asked here. For a bnch of people that come across as not caring what the opinion of this board is, you take it quite seriously.