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Abe Sargent 05-17-2009 08:58 PM

11.3 Michelangelo, artist, Vatican, pre-20th

Noop 05-17-2009 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent (Post 2025164)
11.3 Michelangelo, artist, Vatican, pre-20th


I know they are their own state but if this counts then how come mine didn't?

Abe Sargent 05-17-2009 09:08 PM

Connections between Michelangelo and Vatican:

1. Michel designed the dome to St. Peter's Basillica, generally considered his greatest architectural work, which revolutionized classical architecture

2. Many consider Pieta to be his 2nd best statue after David. Pieta is in the Vatican.

3. The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is considered to be one of the greatest works of the era, and another of his signature works. It was done by Michelangelo

4. Another fresco on the wall of the Chapel was done by Michelanglo.

5. He spent well over ten years of his life working in the Vatican on these various projects.

Danny 05-17-2009 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surtt (Post 2025124)
10.11 Ferdinand Magellan, Navy Chief, Portugal, Pre-20


I thought about him, but not sure how well he would do in warfare.

larrymcg421 05-17-2009 09:10 PM

Vatican is independent. Scotland is part of the UK.

This pick was approved in advance. It was a close call, but the connection was strong enough, because the work is so identifiable with the country. It does not mean that any artist could be picked for a work they did in another country.

Noop 05-17-2009 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent (Post 2025174)
Connections between Michelangelo and Vatican:

1. Michel designed the dome to St. Peter's Basillica, generally considered his greatest architectural work, which revolutionized classical architecture

2. Many consider Pieta to be his 2nd best statue after David. Pieta is in the Vatican.

3. The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is considered to be one of the greatest works of the era, and another of his signature works. It was done by Michelangelo

4. Another fresco on the wall of the Chapel was done by Michelanglo.

5. He spent well over ten years of his life working in the Vatican on these various projects.


It is in Italy.

Abe Sargent 05-17-2009 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 2025179)
It is in Italy.


No, they are not. The Vatican is its own country. All of these are in the Vatican.

Noop 05-17-2009 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 2025178)
Vatican is independent. Scotland is part of the UK.

This pick was approved in advance. It was a close call, but the connection was strong enough, because the work is so identifiable with the country. It does not mean that any artist could be picked for a work they did in another country.


Ok someone picked Puetro Rico why aren't they allowed to pick that person?

Abe Sargent 05-17-2009 09:16 PM

Because PR is a US territory. The Vatican is its own country.

Noop 05-17-2009 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent (Post 2025181)
No, they are not. The Vatican is its own country. All of these are in the Vatican.


Look Abe I am not trying to crap on your pick or anything I just want to know why that is legal and others are not.

Lathum 05-17-2009 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 2025182)
Ok someone picked Puetro Rico why aren't they allowed to pick that person?


Because Puerto Rico isn't an indepandent nation. It's a US territory, not sure what the issue is.

larrymcg421 05-17-2009 09:17 PM

Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States. Vatican is completely sovereign.

Lathum 05-17-2009 09:18 PM

Vatican City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

DaddyTorgo 05-17-2009 09:22 PM

that's kinda sketchy. he was born in italy, and no doubt resided in italy while doing the work in vatican city.

i was a bit unsure as to whether this would be legal or not, he was definately on my list and i thought about it last round before thinking that it wouldn't be legal

DaddyTorgo 05-17-2009 09:24 PM

i'm not bitching, cuz there are a ton of good artists left out there - just saying i can see why someone would raise the question. since the connection is so tenuous does that mean we only are considering him for the work that exists within the walls of vatican city? idk

Abe Sargent 05-17-2009 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 2025196)
that's kinda sketchy. he was born in italy, and no doubt resided in italy while doing the work in vatican city.

i was a bit unsure as to whether this would be legal or not, he was definately on my list and i thought about it last round before thinking that it wouldn't be legal


His greatest fresco, greatest architectural accomplishments, 2nd greatest statue. Not much of a restriction.

Would you consider Simon Bolivar's work only limited to Venezuela and not to the other five countries that consider him a founding father? That's where he was picked after all.

larrymcg421 05-17-2009 09:24 PM

Like I said, it was a close call, and I only let it go because it was most important work and is so closely tied to the Vatican.

Noop 05-17-2009 09:25 PM

So if I wanted to pick Robert E. Lee as my Army Chief I could categorize him as being in the South oppose to America. The south broke away and had their own nation with their own president and governing system. If the Vatican is legal then the south is legal or perhaps the North.

DaddyTorgo 05-17-2009 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 2025203)
So if I wanted to pick Robert E. Lee as my Army Chief I could categorize him as being in the South oppose to America. The south broke away and had their own nation with their own president and governing system. If the Vatican is legal then the south is legal or perhaps the North.


shut your mouth!!! :rant:i was considering doing just that!

but yes, under these rules I'd say so.

larrymcg421 05-17-2009 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 2025199)
i'm not bitching, cuz there are a ton of good artists left out there - just saying i can see why someone would raise the question. since the connection is so tenuous does that mean we only are considering him for the work that exists within the walls of vatican city? idk


Right. Just because I rule there is a strong enough connection for the pick to be made does not mean the voters can't hit you for a weak connection.

Abe Sargent 05-17-2009 09:26 PM

I honestly could find no evidence that he lived in Rome or the Vatican during his time working there. No one seems to care where he lived. But he worked in a place day in and day in for years and years. That is a connection.

DaddyTorgo 05-17-2009 09:27 PM

I wonder whether it was considered its own nation at the time though...if it wasn't that kinda dings you

larrymcg421 05-17-2009 09:27 PM

No, the south wouldn't count because we are using modern countries.

Noop 05-17-2009 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 2025208)
No, the south wouldn't count because we are using modern countries.


That doesn't make sense because the South exists today just united with the north now but at the time it was a viable country. Look Larry I am not trying to give you a hard time because I know running this draft is hard but if this was known it would have changed the draft.

DaddyTorgo 05-17-2009 09:30 PM

just saying - i thought about making this pick last round, but then saw da vinci and said "nope, italy's already off the board" - i think trying to shoehorn him into the vatican would be like..hmm...i can think of some other pretty big "shoehorns", but they haven't been done yet so i won't discuss them

Izulde 05-17-2009 09:30 PM

The South doesn't exist as a separate country today.

The Vatican does.

Abe Sargent 05-17-2009 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 2025207)
I wonder whether it was considered its own nation at the time though...if it wasn't that kinda dings you


First, of all, no it doesnt. India wasn;t its own state during Ghandi's day in the sun, it was part of the UK, but that doesn't matter, does it?



Second of all, I present to you The Papal States. Note the same country, the Papal States went out and then the Vatican came back, but both tuled by the Pope, so perhaps you consider that the same.

Noop 05-17-2009 09:31 PM

Vatican City was founded in 1929. Michelangelo was long dead.

Abe Sargent 05-17-2009 09:32 PM

It's like I threw a bomb in the thread! ;)

Danny 05-17-2009 09:32 PM

Based on our rules and the logic we have used so far, Abe's pick should stand. It's also a great pick.

larrymcg421 05-17-2009 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 2025209)
That doesn't make sense because the South exists today just united with the north now but at the time it was a viable country. Look Larry I am not trying to give you a hard time because I know running this draft is hard but if this was known it would have changed the draft.


The rule is you have to pick a country that exists today. The south does not exist as a country. Robert E. Lee could have been chosen for United states just like William Wallace was chosen for the UK.

The Vatican city is completely sovereign country that exists today.

Danny 05-17-2009 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izulde (Post 2025213)
The South doesn't exist as a separate country today.

The Vatican does.


This is the key point, we're going with the countries as they stand today.

Noop 05-17-2009 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 2025218)
The rule is you have to pick a country that exists today. The south does not exist. Robert E. Lee could have been chosen for United states just like William Wallace was chosen for the UK.

The Vatican city is completely sovereign country that exists today.


Fine. I will not push the issue anymore. My apologizes to everyone.

Abe Sargent 05-17-2009 09:36 PM

I don't mind ;)

Danny 05-17-2009 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 2025221)
Fine. I will not push the issue anymore. My apologizes to everyone.


No need to apologize

DaddyTorgo 05-17-2009 09:37 PM

lol

hey i don't have a huge problem with it - i could have just as easily asked larry earlier about the pick. he's a good artist, but there are plenty of good ones left out there in various disciplines so i'm not like concerned or anything.

just seems like a real tenuous connection - here's a guy born in italy, no doubt lived in italy during the time (i'm sure he went back to his workshop in rome for stuff and slept in his own bed), and you're trying to in some sense work an end-run around the rules because a bunch of his pieces happen to exist within a tiny little country that is 100% enclosed by Italy, and is totally dependent on it for food, water, power, etc.

Abe Sargent 05-17-2009 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 2025227)
lol

hey i don't have a huge problem with it - i could have just as easily asked larry earlier about the pick. he's a good artist, but there are plenty of good ones left out there in various disciplines so i'm not like concerned or anything.

just seems like a real tenuous connection - here's a guy born in italy, no doubt lived in italy during the time (i'm sure he went back to his workshop in rome for stuff and slept in his own bed), and you're trying to in some sense work an end-run around the rules because a bunch of his pieces happen to exist within a tiny little country that is 100% enclosed by Italy, and is totally dependent on it for food, water, power, etc.


Let me ask you this. If DaVinci had not been taken, and I had taken Michelangelo for Italy, would you consider these major works of his that were done for the Pope, in the Vatican, and still are in the Vatican. Would you consider them in your vote? I mean, they would not be in Italy, they would be in a different country. I doubt it. I bet you would consider them when voting for my team. It's not like I took him for Macedonia, where one minor painting is. These are his greatest and most well-known works, except for one statue (David). All but one of his greatest works were done there and are there today. It's not a loose connection

Okay, I;m done with the Michelangelo defense. Next up!

DaddyTorgo 05-17-2009 09:42 PM

nope - if da vinci hadn't been taken i would have considered them for italy. he's an italian painter, living in italy, sleeping in italy, speaking italian, etc. his works just happen to be within 4 walls that make them a separate country? Tenuous connection IMHO.

Danny 05-17-2009 09:45 PM

It's ok, Abe's pick for manmade structure was weak, so it balances out the Michaelangelo pick.

DaddyTorgo 05-17-2009 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 2025240)
It's ok, Abe's pick for manmade structure was weak, so it balances out the Michaelangelo pick.



LOL

ZING!!!

Abe Sargent 05-17-2009 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 2025240)
It's ok, Abe's pick for manmade structure was weak, so it balances out the Michaelangelo pick.


I love you too

Danny 05-17-2009 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent (Post 2025265)
I love you too


I couldn't find the heart emoticon :(

Noop 05-17-2009 10:08 PM

Am I the only one who finds Abe and Danny highly entertaining? You guys should do a podcast or something.

Danny 05-17-2009 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 2025273)
Am I the only one who finds Abe and Danny highly entertaining?


I am pretty sure everyone does

Abe Sargent 05-17-2009 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 2025273)
Am I the only one who finds Abe and Danny highly entertaining? You guys should do a podcast or something.


As long as my name comes first.

Abe Sargent 05-17-2009 10:17 PM

I just want to take a second and go off script. This has been, without a doubt, one of my 5 most fun non-WW experiences on the board and I have loved every minutes of it. Thanks to larry, and thanks to each of you. I've had an downright blast.

Danny 05-17-2009 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent (Post 2025289)
As long as my name comes first.


I was this close to posting a joke about you liking to come first, but I was able to stop myself!

larrymcg421 05-17-2009 10:26 PM

Thanks, Abe!

Danny 05-17-2009 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 2025293)
I was this close to posting a joke about you liking to come first, but I was able to stop myself!


Unlike Abe! (sorry had to)

Abe Sargent 05-18-2009 12:11 AM

You can't reply to yourself and try to burn someone else. That's just dumb.

Abe Sargent 05-18-2009 12:12 AM

You need to find a better hobby than forum masturbation.

ntndeacon 05-18-2009 12:49 AM

I thought that was a clever and brilliant choice for Artist, Abe. I wish I had thought of it. There are several picks that will get knocked down at least on my ballot, because I have a disagreement about something regarding that pick...This wont be one of those.

Danny 05-18-2009 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent (Post 2025348)
You need to find a better hobby than forum masturbation.


Like playing magic? :D

larrymcg421 05-18-2009 01:18 AM

The fuck? The forum just swallowed my entire first post.

larrymcg421 05-18-2009 01:20 AM

Okay, I had an older version in another window, but I'm going to have to finish the updates tomorrow.

Barkeep49 05-18-2009 06:04 AM

I lost the pick # with all of the Vatican discussion (which I think is legal BTW and is more kosher than Taiwan)

11.4 Diego Rivera Artist Mexico 20th Century

ntndeacon 05-18-2009 06:45 AM

that would be 11.4 Barkeep

Barkeep49 05-18-2009 06:47 AM

Thanks

larrymcg421 05-18-2009 07:56 AM

Hmmm, now that BK mentioned it, I'm going to have to review the Taiwan pick. I didn't even really pay attention to the country on that one, and no objection was made at the time. It does seem their situation is a little different than Scotland and PR, but is it different enough? Looking into it...

DaddyTorgo 05-18-2009 08:06 AM

speaking of that - what about james joyce and ireland?

*ducks*

larrymcg421 05-18-2009 08:12 AM

Joyce was born in Dublin.

Noop 05-18-2009 08:26 AM

I sent a PM to Larry about one of my picks so bare(panda bear) with me.

larrymcg421 05-18-2009 08:33 AM

I approved it, and I'll have an explanation as soon as the pick is made.

Abe Sargent 05-18-2009 08:34 AM

Republic of China, aka Taiwan, is its own country, yup.

Noop 05-18-2009 08:36 AM

11.5 Harriet Tubman - Civil Rights - Canada - 20th Century

larrymcg421 05-18-2009 08:40 AM

I approved Tubman for Canada because she actually did live there, helped her family escape to there, and helped up to 30,000 slaves escape there, and many Black Canadian communities developed as a result.

Alan T 05-18-2009 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 2025491)
I approved Tubman for Canada because she actually did live there, helped her family escape to there, and helped up to 30,000 slaves escape there, and many Black Canadian communities developed as a result.


I can't fault this ruling at all. Based on the rules of the draft, much of her work can be tied to Canada. From a voter's perspective however, I'm not sure that this pick will receive that much weight to me however as most of her work was not in Canada. She only started helping bring slaves to Canada once the slave fugutive act was passed, and even then the majority of her work was still in the USA, including the time in the civil war where she helped serve the Union Army.

At this late in the draft however, I highly doubt anyone is counting on picks here to be the main weight in getting voters to go for them however. So probably not a big deal.

ntndeacon 05-18-2009 11:46 AM

Harriet Tubman was in the 20th century?

Danny 05-18-2009 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntndeacon (Post 2025746)
Harriet Tubman was in the 20th century?


She technically lived until then, but all of her contributions were earlier. The pick should still be allowed in 20th, but I think ithe questions surrounding the pick will be reflected in the voting

DaddyTorgo 05-18-2009 12:10 PM

She also moved her family back from Southern Ontario to Auburn, NY and lived out the last years of her life there, not in Canada. So the Canada connection is extremely tenuous. She "lived" there from 1855-1859 (although how much she was actually there is up to debate, her parents and family were there) according to what I could find on Wikipedia. And then lived from 1859-1913 in Auburn, NY.

Danny 05-18-2009 12:44 PM

Izulde is up right?

Coffee Warlord 05-18-2009 04:25 PM

Someone kick Izulde in the face.

Galaril 05-18-2009 04:26 PM

Wow we really are slacking now.

Abe Sargent 05-18-2009 04:37 PM

We went so fast over the weekend too.

Coffee Warlord 05-18-2009 04:42 PM

I'm halfway tempted to pick since I'm picking in a category he already has.

Danny 05-18-2009 04:47 PM

Did anyone PM him?

Danny 05-18-2009 04:48 PM

I did just now, just in case

Surtt 05-18-2009 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord (Post 2026050)
I'm halfway tempted to pick since I'm picking in a category he already has.


That might confuse people and we still would have to wait anyway.

Danny 05-18-2009 06:02 PM

I'm halfway tempted to just put in my final four picks

Izulde 05-18-2009 06:28 PM

Guh, sorry! I slept 15 hours :(

Izulde 05-18-2009 06:28 PM

Looking over board now.

Izulde 05-18-2009 06:36 PM

11.6 Robert de La Salle - Navy Chief - France - Pre-20th Century

Arguably the most extensive of the French explorers, he explored the Great Lakes region, the Mississippi River and the Gulf of Mexico. His Louisiana expeditions are his most famous and his discoveries and explorations led to his claiming the entire Mississippi River basin for France.

Coffee Warlord 05-18-2009 07:50 PM

11.7 Carl Menger, Economist, Poland, 20th

I give to you...the founder of the Austrian School of Economics. Tutored the crown prince of Austria in economics, chair of politicial economy in Vienna, and headed a commission to reform the Austrian monetary system.

DaddyTorgo 05-18-2009 09:08 PM

cool. I can't believe this guy is still here.

11.8 Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Artist, Austria, Pre-20th century

DaddyTorgo 05-18-2009 09:08 PM

sorry - was reinstalling windows there for the last lil while

Noop 05-18-2009 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 2026449)
cool. I can't believe this guy is still here.

11.8 Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Artist, Austria, Pre-20th century


I dispute this pick.

Danny 05-18-2009 09:12 PM

What's wrong with it?

Noop 05-18-2009 09:13 PM

It is tenuous at best.

DaddyTorgo 05-18-2009 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 2026453)
I dispute this pick.


based on what? the lists of people by category aren't there - did someone pick an austrian artist already?

DaddyTorgo 05-18-2009 09:14 PM

music is art

Danny 05-18-2009 09:14 PM

Because of the category?

DaddyTorgo 05-18-2009 09:14 PM

unquestionably

musical ARTISTS

Noop 05-18-2009 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 2026463)
music is art


Missing the joke? You said the same about my pick earlier, I am just kidding with you.

Danny 05-18-2009 09:15 PM

Music is art, there's a reason the grammy is given to best musical artist.

larrymcg421 05-18-2009 09:21 PM

The first post was getting too big for the forum, and that's why it kept disappearing. I'm gonna add a link to the category and drafter lists tonight.

DaddyTorgo 05-18-2009 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 2026469)
Missing the joke? You said the same about my pick earlier, I am just kidding with you.


lol yep - missing the joke!

You would have loved what I would have picked if USA artist + 20th century wasn't picked then!

Noop 05-18-2009 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 2026492)
lol yep - missing the joke!

You would have loved what I would have picked if USA artist + 20th century wasn't picked then!


Throw up since it likely can't be used.

DaddyTorgo 05-18-2009 09:27 PM

a certain King...

DaddyTorgo 05-18-2009 09:27 PM

of Pop

Danny 05-18-2009 09:30 PM

Justin Timberlake?


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