I know they are their own state but if this counts then how come mine didn't?

Connections between Michelangelo and Vatican:

1. Michel designed the dome to St. Peter's Basillica, generally considered his greatest architectural work, which revolutionized classical architecture

2. Many consider Pieta to be his 2nd best statue after David. Pieta is in the Vatican.

3. The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is considered to be one of the greatest works of the era, and another of his signature works. It was done by Michelangelo

4. Another fresco on the wall of the Chapel was done by Michelanglo.

5. He spent well over ten years of his life working in the Vatican on these various projects.

I thought about him, but not sure how well he would do in warfare.

Vatican is independent. Scotland is part of the UK.

This pick was approved in advance. It was a close call, but the connection was strong enough, because the work is so identifiable with the country. It does not mean that any artist could be picked for a work they did in another country.

It is in Italy.

No, they are not. The Vatican is its own country. All of these are in the Vatican.

Ok someone picked Puetro Rico why aren't they allowed to pick that person?

Because PR is a US territory. The Vatican is its own country.

Look Abe I am not trying to crap on your pick or anything I just want to know why that is legal and others are not.

Because Puerto Rico isn't an indepandent nation. It's a US territory, not sure what the issue is.

Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States. Vatican is completely sovereign.

that's kinda sketchy. he was born in italy, and no doubt resided in italy while doing the work in vatican city.

i was a bit unsure as to whether this would be legal or not, he was definately on my list and i thought about it last round before thinking that it wouldn't be legal

i'm not bitching, cuz there are a ton of good artists left out there - just saying i can see why someone would raise the question. since the connection is so tenuous does that mean we only are considering him for the work that exists within the walls of vatican city? idk

His greatest fresco, greatest architectural accomplishments, 2nd greatest statue. Not much of a restriction.

Would you consider Simon Bolivar's work only limited to Venezuela and not to the other five countries that consider him a founding father? That's where he was picked after all.

Like I said, it was a close call, and I only let it go because it was most important work and is so closely tied to the Vatican.

So if I wanted to pick Robert E. Lee as my Army Chief I could categorize him as being in the South oppose to America. The south broke away and had their own nation with their own president and governing system. If the Vatican is legal then the south is legal or perhaps the North.

shut your mouth!!! :rant:i was considering doing just that!

but yes, under these rules I'd say so.

Right. Just because I rule there is a strong enough connection for the pick to be made does not mean the voters can't hit you for a weak connection.

I honestly could find no evidence that he lived in Rome or the Vatican during his time working there. No one seems to care where he lived. But he worked in a place day in and day in for years and years. That is a connection.

I wonder whether it was considered its own nation at the time though...if it wasn't that kinda dings you

No, the south wouldn't count because we are using modern countries.

That doesn't make sense because the South exists today just united with the north now but at the time it was a viable country. Look Larry I am not trying to give you a hard time because I know running this draft is hard but if this was known it would have changed the draft.

just saying - i thought about making this pick last round, but then saw da vinci and said "nope, italy's already off the board" - i think trying to shoehorn him into the vatican would be like..hmm...i can think of some other pretty big "shoehorns", but they haven't been done yet so i won't discuss them

The South doesn't exist as a separate country today.

The Vatican does.

First, of all, no it doesnt. India wasn;t its own state during Ghandi's day in the sun, it was part of the UK, but that doesn't matter, does it?



Second of all, I present to you The Papal States. Note the same country, the Papal States went out and then the Vatican came back, but both tuled by the Pope, so perhaps you consider that the same.

Vatican City was founded in 1929. Michelangelo was long dead.

It's like I threw a bomb in the thread! ;)

Based on our rules and the logic we have used so far, Abe's pick should stand. It's also a great pick.

The rule is you have to pick a country that exists today. The south does not exist as a country. Robert E. Lee could have been chosen for United states just like William Wallace was chosen for the UK.

The Vatican city is completely sovereign country that exists today.

This is the key point, we're going with the countries as they stand today.

Fine. I will not push the issue anymore. My apologizes to everyone.

I don't mind ;)

No need to apologize

lol

hey i don't have a huge problem with it - i could have just as easily asked larry earlier about the pick. he's a good artist, but there are plenty of good ones left out there in various disciplines so i'm not like concerned or anything.

just seems like a real tenuous connection - here's a guy born in italy, no doubt lived in italy during the time (i'm sure he went back to his workshop in rome for stuff and slept in his own bed), and you're trying to in some sense work an end-run around the rules because a bunch of his pieces happen to exist within a tiny little country that is 100% enclosed by Italy, and is totally dependent on it for food, water, power, etc.

Let me ask you this. If DaVinci had not been taken, and I had taken Michelangelo for Italy, would you consider these major works of his that were done for the Pope, in the Vatican, and still are in the Vatican. Would you consider them in your vote? I mean, they would not be in Italy, they would be in a different country. I doubt it. I bet you would consider them when voting for my team. It's not like I took him for Macedonia, where one minor painting is. These are his greatest and most well-known works, except for one statue (David). All but one of his greatest works were done there and are there today. It's not a loose connection

Okay, I;m done with the Michelangelo defense. Next up!

nope - if da vinci hadn't been taken i would have considered them for italy. he's an italian painter, living in italy, sleeping in italy, speaking italian, etc. his works just happen to be within 4 walls that make them a separate country? Tenuous connection IMHO.

It's ok, Abe's pick for manmade structure was weak, so it balances out the Michaelangelo pick.

LOL

ZING!!!

I love you too

I couldn't find the heart emoticon :(

Am I the only one who finds Abe and Danny highly entertaining? You guys should do a podcast or something.

I am pretty sure everyone does

As long as my name comes first.

I just want to take a second and go off script. This has been, without a doubt, one of my 5 most fun non-WW experiences on the board and I have loved every minutes of it. Thanks to larry, and thanks to each of you. I've had an downright blast.

I was this close to posting a joke about you liking to come first, but I was able to stop myself!

Thanks, Abe!

Unlike Abe! (sorry had to)

You can't reply to yourself and try to burn someone else. That's just dumb.

You need to find a better hobby than forum masturbation.

I thought that was a clever and brilliant choice for Artist, Abe. I wish I had thought of it. There are several picks that will get knocked down at least on my ballot, because I have a disagreement about something regarding that pick...This wont be one of those.

Like playing magic? :D

The fuck? The forum just swallowed my entire first post.

Okay, I had an older version in another window, but I'm going to have to finish the updates tomorrow.

I lost the pick # with all of the Vatican discussion (which I think is legal BTW and is more kosher than Taiwan)

11.4 Diego Rivera Artist Mexico 20th Century

that would be 11.4 Barkeep

Thanks

Hmmm, now that BK mentioned it, I'm going to have to review the Taiwan pick. I didn't even really pay attention to the country on that one, and no objection was made at the time. It does seem their situation is a little different than Scotland and PR, but is it different enough? Looking into it...

speaking of that - what about james joyce and ireland?

*ducks*

Joyce was born in Dublin.

I sent a PM to Larry about one of my picks so bare(panda bear) with me.

I approved it, and I'll have an explanation as soon as the pick is made.

Republic of China, aka Taiwan, is its own country, yup.

I approved Tubman for Canada because she actually did live there, helped her family escape to there, and helped up to 30,000 slaves escape there, and many Black Canadian communities developed as a result.

I can't fault this ruling at all. Based on the rules of the draft, much of her work can be tied to Canada. From a voter's perspective however, I'm not sure that this pick will receive that much weight to me however as most of her work was not in Canada. She only started helping bring slaves to Canada once the slave fugutive act was passed, and even then the majority of her work was still in the USA, including the time in the civil war where she helped serve the Union Army.

At this late in the draft however, I highly doubt anyone is counting on picks here to be the main weight in getting voters to go for them however. So probably not a big deal.

Harriet Tubman was in the 20th century?

She technically lived until then, but all of her contributions were earlier. The pick should still be allowed in 20th, but I think ithe questions surrounding the pick will be reflected in the voting

She also moved her family back from Southern Ontario to Auburn, NY and lived out the last years of her life there, not in Canada. So the Canada connection is extremely tenuous. She "lived" there from 1855-1859 (although how much she was actually there is up to debate, her parents and family were there) according to what I could find on Wikipedia. And then lived from 1859-1913 in Auburn, NY.

Izulde is up right?

Someone kick Izulde in the face.

Wow we really are slacking now.

We went so fast over the weekend too.

I'm halfway tempted to pick since I'm picking in a category he already has.

Did anyone PM him?

I did just now, just in case

That might confuse people and we still would have to wait anyway.

I'm halfway tempted to just put in my final four picks

Guh, sorry! I slept 15 hours :(

Looking over board now.

11.6 Robert de La Salle - Navy Chief - France - Pre-20th Century

Arguably the most extensive of the French explorers, he explored the Great Lakes region, the Mississippi River and the Gulf of Mexico. His Louisiana expeditions are his most famous and his discoveries and explorations led to his claiming the entire Mississippi River basin for France.

11.7 Carl Menger, Economist, Poland, 20th

I give to you...the founder of the Austrian School of Economics. Tutored the crown prince of Austria in economics, chair of politicial economy in Vienna, and headed a commission to reform the Austrian monetary system.

cool. I can't believe this guy is still here.

11.8 Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Artist, Austria, Pre-20th century

sorry - was reinstalling windows there for the last lil while

I dispute this pick.

What's wrong with it?

It is tenuous at best.

based on what? the lists of people by category aren't there - did someone pick an austrian artist already?

music is art

Because of the category?

unquestionably

musical ARTISTS

Missing the joke? You said the same about my pick earlier, I am just kidding with you.

Music is art, there's a reason the grammy is given to best musical artist.

The first post was getting too big for the forum, and that's why it kept disappearing. I'm gonna add a link to the category and drafter lists tonight.

lol yep - missing the joke!

You would have loved what I would have picked if USA artist + 20th century wasn't picked then!

Throw up since it likely can't be used.

a certain King...

of Pop

Justin Timberlake?