Sampson, for the 'stros, pitched for 1/3 inning, allowed 1 hit, 2 ER, 4 BB. It was a pathetic game all around.

MLB Game Center - CBSSports.com

That's more like an epic, epic fail by the NL east than something to be happy about.

Insert obvious Mets joke in accordance with Epic Fail. :devil:

As sad as it sounds, great pitching duel between Santana and Park, yea thats right, Chan Ho Park. He's actually got a no hit bid going, as they enter the 5th, Santana has given up 1 hit.

3 Errors for the Phils tonight...coming into this game they only had 5 total.

that 3rd error was just an overall crazy play. Delgado on 1st, Tatis his a slow, broken bat roller to 3rd, no chance to throw him out, Feliz airmails one up the RF line, Delgado comes rolling around 3rd and for one reason or other, Werth pretty much triple clutches before he decides to throw home, as Delgado just beat the throw. Werth clearly would have nailed Delgado if he threw the ball when he picked it up.

Kauffman Stadium is quickly becoming a house of horrors for 1st place teams. Blue Jays rolled in the best team in baseball and promptly lost 3 out of 4. Seattle, which has the 2nd best ERA in baseball, is getting shelled by the Royals offense. Looks like the Royals are going to notch their 5th straight win and move 2 in front of Detroit.

The Royals should sign Pedro Martinez.

It just seems like a fit to me, somehow.

Funny you should say that. Jim Thome Monday night said Zack Greinke is just as good as Pedro in his prime.

Tomorrow Banny vs Washburn @ 1pm (2 here)- sounds like I have something to listen to at work. I was listening to part of Nats-Astros and Cubs-Giants yesterday. Have I mentioned how much I like MLB Audio :)

SI

:lol:

:lol: :lol:

It would be hilarious if they decided to contract the Pirates if they go 20 straight losing seasons. 16 in the bag, and it's starting to look like 17 is a forgone conclusion.

Like I said before, I love Greinke, and he's off to a fantastic start.

I don't think, however, you should start molding his Hall of Fame bust yet. I mean, what if he gets glasses or changes his haircut? You'd have to start all over, then.

I do think people obviously haven't been paying attention if they believe this is just a flukey start. Greinke's only problem has been his personal issues. Assuming he can keep focused and stay away from his social anxiety demons, he's going to have a great career. I do see him as one of those guys that may just play extremely well for another 5-7 years and then just decide to retire for no reason other than he's bored or wants to do something different.

Since last August (so roughly 1/2 of a season), he's given up 18 earned runs. That's incredible.

Yeah, good matchup today. I'll also be utilizing the MLB Audio at work.

Anyone look at the standings today? The AL seems to be tipped on its head:

AL East leader: Toronto
AL Central leader: Kansas City
AL West leader: Texas

Now, I'm not disappointed at all. I'm a lifelong Texas Rangers fan. I just couldn't believe it when I checked this morning. As a Rangers fan, its been 10 years since I've actually had a reason to check the standings.

I love MLB audio. Wish I could listen to it at work. :(

/tk

Some of the more traditional divisional powers have some warts this year. The Yankees and Twins have issues in the pitching staff, both having given up significantly more runs than they've scored. Chicago has good pitching, but can't score worth a lick. And we all know about the injuries/tragedy with the Angels and their starting staff.

Welcome to our world. Enjoying every minute of it :D

Tho, after this past weekend, I'm starting to be convinced we could be for real and actually be playing for the playoffs. There are some caveats- we're in a fairly weak division so staying a couple of games over .500 keeps us in contention- and also, this assumes no more major injuries. Gordon is already on the shelf and Meche has been ailing the last 2 starts so he needs to get right.

SI

I know Santana has been similarly incredible over that timeframe, so I checked the numbers.

Greinke has thrown 107 innings since August, yielding 18 earned runs for an ERA of 1.51.

Santana has thrown 126.1 innings, yielding 22 earned runs for an ERA of 1.56.

Yep, incredible.

What's most unreal to me about Santana is how whenever he gets into a bit of trouble, either because of a walk or an error, he's amazing at getting his team out of it and limiting the damage. He's given up just 2 additional unearned runs, and in total runs allowed over those last 19 starts, he's given up 3 runs twice, 2 runs seven times, 1 run four times, and 0 runs six times. Especially with this anemic offense, never allowing more than 3 runs is essential.

It's a fluky start.

He will not finish the season with an ERA of .40.

I agree. He will not finish the year with an ERA+ roughly 5 times the all-time record.

Good to see you posting on the board, Peter Gammons.

My point being, of course, that its a little early to crown his ass with comparisons to Pedro Martinez.

Just enjoy what he's doing.

I've been wondering why I haven't heard Jerry Remy on the NESN broadcasts, and it turns out he's not only got lung cancer, but he's having complications. :(

Naw, that's totally sustainable ;)

SI

I know this is going to sound completely moronic, but that's really the key to having a microscopic ERA- keep the crooked numbers off the board. Look, Greinke's going to give up some home runs. He's a fly ball pitcher and he's been lucky to not have a couple of those go over the fence so far.

Take your pick of fun Greinke stats so far this season:

Greinke fun facts » Joe Posnanski

"5. The league is hitting .242/.294/.337 against him with nobody on base.But the league is hitting .109/.136/.125 against him with runners on base.
And the league is hitting .097/.097/.097 against him with runners in scoring position.


6. Greinke’s strikeout-to-walk ratio with runners in scoring position — 14-to-0.


7. Batters are hitting .171 against Greinke in the seventh inning and after."


It sounds flukey, but there's some explanation here, using Pitchf/x:
Deconstructing Greinke - Royals Authority


SI

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Jim Thome, having faced Pedro Martinez on many occasions, is a bit better equipped than you or I to make that comparison.

I'm also sure there were some hitters who thought Valenzuela was the greatest pitcher ever in May, 1981.

I really hope that Greinke gets that Cy Young, so he can put it with the trophies won by other area greats, such as the Heisman won by Chase Daniel and the NCAA Div. 1 basketball championship trophy won by Coach Anderson.

I LOLed Cartman.

Yeeeeah... because we use subjective impressions of athletes to decide on factual comparisons all the time! Though I've heard we've started using these things called statistics to get away from that thing! I can't wait to see what happens!

It's understandable to be excited for Greinke. His start has been amazing and I'm rooting for him to put together an incredible season.

But let's be real. Greinke's best ERA+ has been 127. Pedro went higher than 200 5 times in a 7 year span. Maybe we could wait for him to finish at least one season in the 200's before he gets compared to Pedro?

Wasn't it great when Coach Anderson and his team were honored by President McCain?

Well I'd think a pitching coach would know even more than Jim Thome.


We live in a lucky time when we undeniably have two young Pedros pitching.

Oh shi

Giving your team an extremely good chance to win every single game you start is why they call you a stopper.

That, or play with a horrendous defense and give up a lot of unearned runs. :D

I applaud this effort. I think all of the other Mizzou fans are icky Cardinal lovers so this is pretty much targeted at MBBF alone (well, kcchief19- but he's smart enough to ignore it)

It also realizes that the rest of the Royals fans on the board (and there are a couple of us) are just mostly in shock and enjoying it :D

SI

We can do that, too! Especially on the infield ;)

SI

Breaking on ESPN:

Manny Ramirez suspended 50 games starting today, he tested positive for PEDs.

BWHAHAHAAHHA

No way.

Heard it on the radio just now as well.

I'm sure he'll claim that he didn't know what he was taking (and that people will belief it).

He's aloof, not retarded.

Wow, we had such an awesome start to the season too. And yes Manny is stupid, otherwise he would not have gotten caught.

The Dodgers were off to such a good start too. The division is weak enough that they will likely still be in first once Ramirez is back.

Wow. Wonder how this went down - is he dumb enough to fail a standard steroids test? Or did something else happen?

heh. i wonder if it was a recent thing or if it's been career-long

Reportedly (LA Times) Ramirez will claim the failed test resulted from prescribed medication for a personal medical issue.

The BBWAA is rubbing its hands with glee at the thought of barring another of the era's superstars from the Hall of Fame.

Jeez.

:(

If this is the case I would love to know what he actually tested positive for.

Of course.

These kind of excuses should be completely irrelevant.

Even on the 1% chance that it's true - he's still responsible (or should be responsible) for anything he ingests/injects.

Most of this banter is intended to get a rise out of me rather than actually engage in discussion. They should be bitching at Thome if they have an issue with his characterization, not me.

I've been a Royals fan my whole life as have likely you. Anyone who assumes that any Royals fan doesn't have a built in worry warning system simply isn't playing with a full deck of cards. As you said, it's fun to enjoy it for now with the realization that this MIGHT finally be the year where we can make a run to actually do something other than shooting for a .500 record.

If you're an MLB player and take medication without investigating if it would cause you to fail a steroids test, then you deserve the 50 game suspension for sheer stupidity.

Hey don't shoot the messenger, I just quoted what I read when I Googled up the full Times article. I'm banging my head on the desk at his stupidity but I'm not defending his fuck up.

I didn't mean to imply that you were taking the contrary side, I was just responding to this whole lack of knowledge defense in general, which drives me crazy.

I know you're really enjoying it. I just don't like you screwing with our karma with big boasts and claims. C'mon- you know how this goes, we're all just waiting for the axe to fall and just hoping it doesn't any time soon ;)

SI

Actually, most of us really like Greinke and would prefer it if you didn't PS3jinx him into a season ending injury.

I've gone without boasting over the past 15-20 years. That's gone real well.

Touche ;)

SI

AL East Standings May 7th, 2005


AL East Standings at the end of 2005

Yes, there's never been a situation where a team has lead a division early and lead it late as well. They always falter, right?

Sorry, but this comment is up there with any of the PS3 comments in its absurdity.

Congrats on making the baseball thread this year a parody thread on par with the other train wrecks you've posted in on a regular basis.

Still pissed the Mariners got pasted last night, are you?

The posted case is far more common than yours, however, at least when talking about teams that have been weak of late.

Even the Mets have made it a habit lately of leading all the way up until the last week or so of the season...

This is one reason that Tampa Bay was such a huge story last year.

I tried watching Surviving Suburbia once and it sucked.

Actually he's probably more pissed at the mind bogglingly stupid comment you made.

Is that former President Bush? ;)

SI

I remember being giddy with the Brewers' 24-10 start a few years ago before the implosion occurred and they finished 83-79, on the outside looking in.

On the bright side, it was a sign of good things to come.

So you're of the opinion that Jim Thome is not better equipped than you or I to judge the similarities of two pitchers he's faced with regularity? Interesting. Certainly, it's nothing more than his opinion, but it's a knowledgeable opinion given the subject.

FWIW.....Royals fans don't need examples from other teams to know what can happen to an early lead. The 2003 Royals had a huge division lead at the All-Star Break only to falter down the stretch. With that said, there's far more examples of teams who remain ahead after a good start than those that start slow and rally late. The Royals organization over the past 15 years is a poster child for what a slow April can do to to a team's hope, even if they play well in the other months.

It's so cool to be able to think "hey, we have a winning streak" without doing the math of "does this count as a streak, considering how bad this team is?" (i.e. there were some years where I think 2 in a row might have counted as a winning streak and 3 was for sure)

SI

Days like today make it worth it that I get up at 4:45 AM in the morning. Got up and noticed an article posted in the KC Star that mentioned that the starters are all being pushed back one day due to the off-day on Monday. As a result, Zack Greinke will be pitching a week from today on Buck Night ($1 hot dogs, $1 pop, $1 popcorn). I went right to the site and snapped up 4 tickets before the rest of KC could wake up and know about it. That game will be sold out today or tomorrow.

Is this right? 3 game lead for the Royals with the next three series against 3 sub-.500 teams (LA Angels, Oakland, Baltimore)? Oh, this could get REAL good in a big hurry.

Unbelievable that the Twins lost 2 games to Baltimore. Embarrassing stuff, and this is coming from a guy who's roots for Baltimore when they aren't playing the Royals. Yes, I'm a glutton for punishment.

ls- the Nats finally built a lead large enough the bullpen couldn't blow, try as they might ;)

SI

Hell of a wild game for the Nationals last night. Following the Manny fiasco, rookie pitcher Jordan Zimmermann gives up 6 runs in the first inning to the Dodgers. However, as JIMGA mentioned earlier in the thread, JZim has shown some excellent poise for a rookie. He follows up that first inning with 5 shutout innings. The bats light up, and the Nats go on to win 11-9 (after an attempt or 2 by the bullpen to spoil the comeback).

MBBF, I wish I had your blind loyalty towards my teams. It would definitely give me a lot more to root for.

Yes (at least when it applies to me, not you). Especially when he's doing so subjectively and I have a ream of statistical analysis.

Fair enough. I think it's a bit more than subjective when you've faced both guys. I'd also note that we are comparing performances over a sample (in this case, Thome's at-bats against the two pitchers), not a career. If you're arguing career, no one would question that Pedro is better. Not sure why that would even need to be argued.

But it's not like Greinke is a sudden flash in the pan either. He's been labeled as a can't miss player since he was drafted. He has the potential to be extremely special.

Did anyone else watch the Phillies/Mets game last night on MLB Network?

1. It was fun to listen to Costas. Thought he did a really nice job.

2. I had no idea Jamie Moyer was even alive. Imagine my shock when I saw he was starting the game for the Phillies last night. Cracked me up when the color commentator and Costas had to keep clarifying that the 81 MPH pitch was his fastball and the 74-76 MPH pitch was his changeup. I think they were worried that people would say they didn't know what they were talking about when they called a pitch a 'fastball' and the radar gun showed 81 MPH.

What the Fuck? Do you even know what "subjective" means?


Which pitcher was better at their peak is the implied comparison here, actually.


Never, ever, ever came close to saying that he was. But he's no Pedro. Hell, barely anyone in baseball history is Pedro. He's arguably one of the Top 5 pitchers of all time.

Someone does not watch baseball ;).

So, in other words, you're saying it's inconclusive because we don't have the full body of work. That's fine.

Greinke obviously had the personal issues that robbed him of his early career. That will obviously hurt his comparison numbers in the long term. I think down the road that we'll find that his early years were the fluke when we look at season results.

I do think there's a difference between your argument and Thome's statement. Thome's comparison is obviously in regards to 'stuff'. Your comparison is in regards to stats.

Or someone pays little attention to the Senior league until later in the season when the AL actually starts playing them head to head. :D

I've got a kid now. I remember when I didn't. I'd watch sports ALL the time. Ah, the good old days.

Didn't hear the game in question but having heard him in the past few years I think I'd rather listen to Tim McCarver argue with John Madden and Charles Barkley about the finer points of tiddlywinks than have to suffer another minute of hearing Costas be Costas. At this point he's a parody of himself but the shark was jumped quite a bit back afaic.

He's almost as bad as Joe Buck & Joe Morgan, which would be a combination that is to overbearingly obnoxious what The Hinderburg was to a kid's balloon popping at Chuck E. Cheese.

Wow- that combination just made me ill to my stomach

SI

I used to think Costas was a lot like Jim Nance covering the Masters. Always looking for a fancy way to say things or a catch phrase, which was annoying. He didn't bother me nearly as much last night as he had in previous times when I listened to him announce a game.

Though I'll admit that I may have been too busy laughing at their comments surrounding Jamie Moyer to notice everything. :D

He really wasn't bad at all. And Al Leiter (who was with him) is an excellent analyst.

No. Greinke is going to have to show me he can come close to Pedro's dominant peak before you can even put them in the same sentance. Pedro Martinez is like Walter Johnson, you don't throw around the comparisons that easily.

I'm sure I've said that before, but there has been no other pitcher in history as dominant at his peak as Pedro was in his 7 year span.


Well, I'd say that either Thome is incorrect, or Pedro Martinez had something else (control?) that makes him vastly superior to Greinke.

Dude! He was basically the #2 pitcher for the freaking World Champions of Baseball! If you watch baseball, I'd imagine that is one thing you HAVE to watch!

I don't want to really get involved in any sort of argument, but I think a lot of this just has to do with miscommunication. You hear players making comparisons like this at times, and Thome is speaking of right now (and I'm assuming here, I can't find Thome's quote anywhere). Not the last 3 years of statistical data or where he'll be at the end of the season, but right now, during this ridiculous streak he's running.

Obviously Pedro had a prolonged segment of his career that Greinke can only dream about, but since the start of this season, Greinke has been absolutely ridiculous. Is it crazy to say that right now he's where Pedro was at his peak? Not nearly as crazy as it would be to say that he's going to keep this up for seven years. Yes Greinke is likely to regress and fall back a bit closer to the norm but going just off what he's done so far this season, the comparison isn't all that ridiculous.

It's the same as when a batter is locked in and has a 20 game hitting streak going or hits home runs in 8 straight games, etc. All sorts of comparisons come out during the streak that go away once the streak ends. Doesn't mean that for a brief period of time that those comparisons aren't valid.

Dola, obviously we all have our own opinions on how big of a sample size should be involved before those sorts of comparisons start getting made, but whether it's the interpretation of the time period involved that I'm reading as the biggest issue here and I'd bet Thome is talking about a much smaller sample size (ie: right here, right now) than what you're looking at ISiddiqui.

Nine starts dude, not seven years.

Page not found » Joe Posnanski

Dating back to last year, Greinke has won nine consecutive starts, and in those nine starts he has an 0.69 ERA. How good is that? Well, legendary. There have been 50 pitchers since 1954 who have won nine or more consecutive starts. Greinke’s is the second-best.