While I technically agree (hello 2004 Yankees), he's pretty close to right on. Tonight shows everything you need to know about most of the players on the Lakers roster. They have no mental toughness when the going gets tough, and when the pressure is on, they play phenomenally stupid. The Celtics are a team I can respect watching them play. They are terrific. Their stars have heart. They show up to play. Even bench guys like Posey or PJ Brown or Powe step it up. But the Lakers are soft and weak and fall apart at the first sign of trouble. They go into deep funks where they cannot run their offense at all. They treat the ball like a hot potato, and a wet paper towel provides better defense. They couldn't stop anyone to save their life. WTF is Vujacic doing going for a steal when Allen's going by him on the C's last possession, for instance? Stupid and bad D. Hey, Gasol and Turiaf, what say you go get that wide open rebound with five minutes left instead of letting little Allen just jump up right between you and reset the offense (and they scored). And what does it take to look down and see where the three point line is?

I'm glad a Lakers team playing this way is going to lose. They don't deserve to win. The Celtics do. So great job, Celtics. And Lakers, have fun searching for your sack this summer.

Stat of the series:

Third quarter scoring in the series thus far: Celtics 116, Lakers 73.

I know people don't like to give Ainge much respect, because the KG trade was a dumb move by McHale more than a good move by Ainge. However, you still have to give him credit for making the Allen trade, for acquiring guys like Posey, Brown, Cassell, House, and for drafting guys like Rondo, Perkins, Powe, and Davis.

Best to get this out the way now then

Celtics: 23-28 from the line
Lakers: 21-29 from the line.

Why? I have no problem calling my teams out

Well he did win Executive of the Year. :)

I agree that he has made some good moves, although I wouldn't yet put Davis in the same talk with the other three draftees. Plus, can't get credit for Cassell when they were crying for each other for a couple months before my craptastic Clips released him to shut him up.

I think in the long run, on the basis of talent, the C's will still end up down on the Allen deal, but if it gets them a championship this year, then everything's all good. I think they shipped away good, young talent to get a shorter term return with Allen. But I would give Ainge more credit for the KG deal. Really, Jefferson was the only player worth a damn. Even if that's on McHale a bit, there were plenty of other GMs who could have taken advantage of him who didn't manage it.

Which was about right, the way the game was played. Both teams played aggressive at times and not so much at other times. Nice to see a game that looked it should be even actually be even.

Couldn't agree with you more. I've enjoyed pro basketball less and less since MJ retired. There is no one that makes his whole team better like MJ did when he won all those championships.

Dude....

By the same token, the series ain't over. The Celtics tend to play lax when they feel they're in a comfortable position.

Still, it's hard to believe they're one win away from #17....and that Doc Rivers is one win away from being an NBA Championship coach.

And "choke" is an overused term in professional sports. It's pretty rare to see an actual choke job - a team/athlete afraid to win. I think I saw a true choke in a tennis match once. The Lakers just blew it.

All this "Kobe will never be MJ" has got to be eating away at Bug.

Love it. :)

Chief, I mean this in the nicest possible way, but if you ever again insinuate that Orange County teams are somehow tied to Los Angeles, particularly the Anaheim Angels, I will drive over there and beat you until candy comes out. :)

And at $4.50 a gallon, I intend to get my money's worth of candy. :D

I hate the Lakers, but I hope they fuck up the Lakers, and win this in 7.

Boston. It's not the teams. It's the fans. It's a Bourgeoisie city pretending to be a Working Class city, and the fans (for the most part) are the same way. Poseurs.

At least LA fans don't try to pretend they are a "nation" of tough, hardcore fans. They are fans, but they realize that they are just that - fans. Not some bandwagon riding fuckfest.

Was that too harsh? I'm tired.

Less harsh. More predicatable. Thus blunted.

You're right. I confess. I do get predictable. It's honest though.

Although, the predictability switches a lot. :(

I actually find myself rooting for Boston in this series.

I want to see the celebrity fans go back into their parallel universe.

I want to see Sasha Vujabitch be thrashed viciously about the face and neck.

I want to see Kobe "If Barry Bonds were an alleged rapist" Bryant be lower on the totum pole than Shaq.

I want to see Phil "overrated" Jackson be lower on the totem pole than Auerbach, if for nothing more than that anti-flopping video Red did.

I want to see the smug prick Lakers fans choke on their own arrogance.....You just know they bought into the "Lakers in 4...5 max" hype. I know I almost did. Paper Tigers.

Does the fact that I don't even know who "Sasha Vujabitch" is make me less of an NBA fan?

Probably, but I've always been just a Pistons fan. The rest of the league can rot as far as I'm concerned. It actually sucks having to pay like $200+ to Directv (in 4 installments) every year just so I can watch one team. I literally never watch another game on NBA League Pass.

The Kobe-Jordan comparisons does not bother me nearly as much as the Gasol-Pippen comparisons I heard in some circles at the beginning of the series.

Don't make me bump your thread again.

Man am I angry at myself. I avoid all mentioning of the final score so I can watch the replay, then a few minutes in to the 3rd Q with the Celtics playing like utter crap I turn off the TV and go upstairs, but on a whim I check the boxscore... Naturally I went back down and started watching the rest of the game, but way to ruin the suspense of the comeback. D'oh. :(

I know there's mixed-feelings about him (and rightfully so, he can be a bit over the top even for this Boston fan), but BSG actually gave up his tickets to last night's game and stayed home to do one of his "running diaries." It's up on ESPN.

Kobe can't win without Shaq.

Phil can't win without more than one hall of famer on his roster.

This has been an interesting series, but I do not think it is as lopsided as the series record shows. Two games that the Lakers lost they had every opportunity to win. The difference in the series is the the Cs had a big lead they let get away, but they held on to win. The Lakers had a big lead, but they let the Cs manage to take that game from them. Otherwise, we are tied 2-2 right now.

I agree that the series is not over yet. But IF the C's go on to win, there would be a lot of "can you believe that happened?" stories you could run with. Besides Doc Rivers, you have KG actually winning a title after his lack of playoff success in the past, Danny Ainge being a championship winning GM, Ray Allen, a possible Series MVP candidate, ten days after being declared washed up, and my personal favorite, the representative of the "JV" conference once again winning a title over the Varsity conference splitting the number of titles evenly between the conferences over the last six years.

One more note that may only interest me. According to Basketball-Reference, the last Western Conference team to win the NBA title that was not named the Spurs or the Lakers were the Houston Rockets who won back to back titles in 93-94 and 94-95. Before that? Seattle in 78-79. Wow.

Jordan can't win without Pippen

Get me a slupree bitch! :)

Garnett can't win without Brian Scalabrine.

History backs me up.

Dr J can't win without Moses Malone!

You tell me...

It's pretty unusual for Boston to ever have the neutral fans on their side but I think that's happened for the most part in this series.

Kobe is most unlikeable sports figure west of Bill Bellichick.

So in your mind Kobe = MJ and Shaq = Pippen in terms of talent?

Shaq > Pippen

no doubt that at this moment were the series to end, Ray Allen is your Finals MVP. who knows how the rest will play out, but right now he is.

TBH for his sake, after having been seen as the junior member of the Big 3 all season, I hope he plays strong down the stretch and takes Finals MVP.

Of course not. The Kobe and Jordan comparisons should have ended a few years ago. Kobe will never be Jordan, but in a few years time, people will be comparing perimeter players to Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron. All three are different type of players with different skill sets

Kobe is a different type of player than Jordan, that's true - he is much more one-dimensional. He is also NOT NEARLY AS GOOD as Jordan.

You forgot to also add that Kobe is a butt pirate. :eek:

They also play a different position. And I would say that he's not quite as good as Jordan, not "NOT NEARLY AS GOOD"

+1

No doubt Kobe is good, Kobe is an all-star. But I also think he's in large-part a media creation. He's a result of the media's constant clamoring for "the next Jordan." Not that he isn't a talented player, but he really can't hold a candle to Jordan. But since the media needed someone to pimp as the "next Jordan" in order to sell the league, Kobe got the call. Playing in a major media-market (and a major basketball culture), with MJ's old coach hasn't hurt in that regard either. Because of all this, he gets some pretty favorable calls from the officials and thus gets to the line a lot and is able to increase his ppg, which only adds fuel to the fire of the comparison.

But looking at skill-sets - looking at accomplishments - no way can Kobe even hold Jordan's jock. I found it funny when they were talking about accomplishments the other night and showed some graphic - Kobe has won what - 1 MVP and 2 scoring titles? Jordan had like 5 mvp's and 8 scoring titles or something? Shit - Iverson has won more scoring titles than Kobe, and as many MVP's (not really sure of this?) Why aren't we calling HIM the next MJ? Not to mention that MJ never had the benefit of playing with another player who forced the defense to change their entire gameplan like Kobe had with Shaq.

Kobe = MJ talk is an insult to MJ

dola - if MJ had had Shaq on his team, he could have gone undefeated in '96

Kobe is a media creation? I've never heard Kobe say anything disparaging about Jordan nor have I ever heard of him claiming to be the next Jordan.


Jordan was also ahead of the times when he was playing. No doubt Jordan is the man that is at the top of the list for best players. But you are using MVP's and Scoring titles to dictate who the best is? One one hand you knock Kobe for not winning enough MVP's and scoring titles, but then you go on to say that Kobe had Shaq (which was enough of a reason to not need to win scoring titles).

In the end, Kobe will go down as the best player of the post-Jordan era. But I think the only thing that Kobe really wants at this point, is the Finals MVP award. It's the only thing missing from his resume as a basketball player. And I have no doubt that he'll win at least two titles before all is said and done.

Yes. Kobe is a media creation. In that the media (and the league is complicit too) saw a talented young ballplayer in a major media market, a major center of basketball culture, and promoted the hell out of him and built him up. Not to say he isn't a great player as I said, but the media for years and years has been pushing him on us as "the best player on the planet" and "the next MJ". He hasn't...in fact to his credit everytime he is asked that he laughs it off and says that it is ludicrous, but the media keeps pushing it. because it sells. it sells magazines, tv ads, lakers jerseys, etc

Kobe can't hold Jordan's jock.

And I would say Tim Duncan is the best player of the post-Jordan era.

and Bug - to be clear i'm not using accomplishments like that to say who i think is best. i was talking about how the other night (game 3 maybe?) they were doing the "kobe-mj" comparison and flashing those graphics on the screen, and i just found it very ironic, because in no way do those statistical accomplishments support the argument. if you want to make the argument, you can make the argument, but don't use statistics that don't back it up to try to support it

Kobe has done a heck of a lot with not very much on that team. I will say that. Guys like McGrady never did and heck even Garnett, Allen and Pierce couldn't do it until they got each other to come together.

Kobe has Pau Gasol and Lamar freakin' Odom as his cast o' characters. That's not a Big 3. Kobe has said a lot that he's not even going to try to be the next Jordan, never wanted to be and has eschewed the talk. He just wants to be the best him he can be.

He's a young guy that came up fast, he's emerged into a leader and while he's got issues and such, I think that he comports himself quite well. If nothing else, I think it's really cool that he speaks multiple languages, seems to enjoy playing and has no doubt learns from past situations better than almost anyone in the league.

that's a nice way of saying "he's a rapist"

I agree.

except when he sticks it where it's not wanted

+2

Tim Duncan??? Not so sure about that. I think that is still Kobe or even Shaq.

Shaq!?!? are you kidding?? his FT-difficulties preclude that ever being seriously discussed. plus, he has zero range. he's absolutely zero threat if he's not in dunking-distance of the basket.

Duncan isn't GREAT from the FT-line, but at least he's decent. Shaq is atrocious.

Eh, this argument will never be solved. Kobe's stats the past couple of years, and certainly this year, were comparable to Jordan's stats. Kobe is a better shooter then Jordan was, but until Kobe starts taking better shots, he'll never shoot a high percentage from the field and from the distance. That's one of the main differences between the two; shot selection. Kobe takes (and sometimes makes) shots that Jordan would never have attempted because they were low percentage shots and didn't go in the flow of the offense. Once Jordan saw his game not translate well into titles, he remade himself over and became who he is now. I'll never buy the assist/rebound numbers because Kobe and Jordan don't play the position the same way and have different skill sets.

But to answer your question, I dont endorse the NBA making these assumptions. Kobe is a first ballot HOF right now and I'm afraid that he'll have "The Next MJ" on his plaque

Duncan certainly was the most consistent player.

I think Kobe is on his way to being the best player of the post Jordan era. Seriously. I don't particularly care for him, but I think he is the most consistently unstoppable player on the floor in any game. He's having a rough finals so far, but I think he could rebound.

Shaq was a dominate player and has taken every team he has been on to the finals. If Shaq should make FT his numbers would be down right scary and would be similar to Wilt. While Duncan is consistent I don't consider him a better player then Shaq or Kobe. In a couple years players like LeBron, Chris Paul, Derron Williams and Dwight Howard might be put in this discussion.

I think the 2nd part of that is true, but I think the Celtics are the exception to the rule about most neutral fans rooting against Boston teams. Bird and company were so much fun to watch, that I think people in my generation are likely to root for the Celtics as long as they aren't fans of the other team. It doesn't hurt that they have had a down period and haven't always been successful this last decade.

Yes and yes.

I think it is even simpler than that. By most accounts, the Celtics were the underdogs going into this series against with the Lakers. I really don't think dislike for Kobe was even factor going into the series this series. He is definitely not the most unlikeable sports figure out west. Hell he is not the most unlikeable guy in the Western Conference. Bruce Bowen anyone?

You ever read any stories about Bruce's upbringing and how he conducts himself off the court? Sure, he is a tough player who makes questionable plays on the court, but off the court, he seems like a great guy who has had a difficult upbringing. I don't see him being more disliked than Kobe by the average person.

Hmm...not sure if your serious, but I find there to be either a complete hatred or infatuation for Kobe. In New England (from what I've seen) it's far more the former than the latter. I'm not just talking about this season either, but really ever since the Shaq situation. So from my experience there's really no competition for Kobe in the most unlikeable WC guy. I could definitely see people thoroughly rooting against Kobe.

I dunno. He might compare favorably to Barry Bonds. And, um... that's all I've got.

SI

Except that as recent as last year, there were MVP chants for Kobe when he came to Boston.

My Boss is from Pennsylvania and he hates everything about the Lakers :)

I'd say the people (those with the MVP chants that is) at that game were there for Kobe and the Lakers and not for the Celtics.

Edit: As in a lot of Celtic fans weren't going to pay the ticket prices to watch the 'product' on the floor. This was seen for any big name player/team (the Lebron's, Heat, Suns, etc.)

Pierce took a team to Game 6 of the Conference Finals with Antione Walker as the only above replacement-level teammate. You can also look at what LeBron is doing with a terrible supporting cast in Cleveland.

I think Duncan/Shaq were the two dominant players the first 5 post-Jordan era and now that they're declining LeBron is going to take the mantle from Kobe. The man is an absolute force of nature.

And now once again we get a 3-day wait while the teams are in LA. How does this make sense? How do we not have the 3-day wait for travel breaks?

They don't want the games on Friday and Saturday nights.

The rest of the Celtics playoff roster in 2002 included Antoine Walker, Kenny Anderson, Rodney Rogers, Eric Williams, Tony Battie, Tony Delk, Walter McCarty, Erick Strickland, Mark Blount, Kedrick Brown.

Pierce took this group to the conference finals, led the biggest comeback in playoff history, and was two games from the NBA finals. He did it with that roster.

Who were the Stars in the east at that time?

Given the six-day lead-in they had, they could have started two days earlier and done Tu/Th - Sun/Tu/Th - Sun/Tu. The schedule they left themselves with is horrible.

Those stories were there when he was called a thug and a cheat as recently as this season. Kobe Bryant has been lauded all year long for finally growing up, being such a great teammate, being such a great leader etc. In fact, there has been a bit of a ground swell of support nationally for Kobe when they talked about the Kobe-Shaq situation. That support had only been evident in LA in previous years.

Kobe has been great for the LA community and charity work

Iverson with the Sixers, Kidd with the Nets, McGrady with the Magic, Reggie and Jermaine with Indiana, Baron Davis with the Hornets, some guy with the Wizards. Look, I'm not going to argue that the East was strong that year, but seriously look at that team. They went to the conference finals.

I've never understood why Paul Pierce got so much shit over the years.

b/c people are h8rs

:wagfingers: :D

What probably kills ya most is that two of the three I brought up were OC teams. Only one LA team in the Lakers, and they are so universal in the area, they do sorta count for the whole SoCal region, so for OC fans, my post works fine. :devil:

Actually he said on local radio a couple days ago (he shows up fairly often on his buddy Dave Damashek's show) that he was going to stay home, simply because he can't stand being in the stands surrounded by fans who aren't rooting with him. Haven't read the running diary yet, but I'll bet he wished he was there by the end. ;)

I don't think Kobe is nearly as unlikeable as people seem. I know many people who are rooting for the Lakers in this series just because they like Kobe. I'm one of them.

Heh...believe it or not, this is me as well. Lakers have always been my #2 team (despite what has transpired in this thread), and they are a distant #2 behind the Clips. The main reason the Lakers get love from me is because of Kobe.

After looking at the stats today, I think people are underselling Shaq when it comes to dominance. From 93-94 to 02-03, he never averaged less than 26.2 or 10.7. And his 3-year finals averages are utterly dominant.

2000: 38.0/16.7/2.3 61.1% FG
2001: 33.0/15.8/4.8 57.3% FG
2002: 36.3/12.3/3.8 59.5% FG

Not to discount this, because I haven't given my opinion on who is actually best post-Jordan, but why didn't you include his three other Finals appearances?

Top 10 career PER's in the post-Jordan era...

Shaquille O'Neal 27.14 (#2 all-time to Jordan)
Lebron James 25.17
Tim Duncan 25.10
Kevin Garnett 23.93
Dirk Nowitzki 23.92
Kobe Bryant 23.57
Tracy McGrady 23.38
Elton Brand 22.69
Pau Gasol 21.70
Vince Carter 21.65

Shaq led this category 5 straight times (98-02).

so you're saying garnett is better than Bryant?

Nope. I'm just posting the career PER's. I'm sure as hell not saying Dirk is better than Kobe.

The more telling part of this is Shaq winning it 5 straight years. Only Jordan (7) and Wilt (6) have had more dominant runs.

Kobe's is also down a bit because of his first couple of years. He didnt even start as a rookie and I would imagine that would lessen his overall value as far as career numbers go

I think he is a love him or hate him type of personality. I'm bored this evening so I'm looking at a bunch of articles about most disliked athletes via a google search.

GQ has him as the most hated basketball player and 5th overall. This was as voted by peers. Bonzi Wells is 7th on the list and the only other basketball player. Rasheed was on the honorable mention list. FWIW, Terrell Owens was #1 and Barry Bonds was #2.

A more recent web survey voten on by users has him also at #5 on their list and the highest basketball player. Others on the list are Ron Artest and Rasheed Wallace.

Another voter based website has him at #3 only behind Barry Bonds and A-Rod. I find it interesting that OJ is 5th on that list.

He is the highest basketball player on every list I can find. His name is brought up again and again on the web as people debate the most hated athletes. I don't think the anti-Kobe sentiment is being overestimated.

I dislike Kobe Bryant, and the Lakers in general, as a Celtics fan, but I will add that a woman who works for me with a terminally ill brother had the opportunity to meet him as part of a Make-a-Wish event and said that he was a great guy who was very nice to her brother.

Walker was probably the best sidekick that any of those other players had

Look, if the Lakers played in the OC but called themselves the Los Angeles Lakers, kinda like the Angels, or like the New York Giants of East Rutherford, you'd have a point.

Because they don't, I stand by my candy threat. Also, gas is up ten cents a gallon here since I posted that, so tread carefully. :D

*chuckles* Someone just IM'd me the following.

"The NBA announced the refs for game five are Bennett Salvatore, Joey Crawford and David Stern. The NBA announced they would announce the refs for game six when if the Lakers win."

Looks like game 4, hopefully the Lakers won't choke this one away.

Man, what could have been...

ESPN had an article on the Top Finals PERS and they were handy. A quick look at his stats didn't show any way to break down other playoff stats (I suppose basketball-reference.com or something would have them.)

NBA and its remaining fans who don't think it's rigged must love that ESPN had Dick Bavetta being a Game 5 ref on its front page. They just can't get out of their own way. Just stop assigning the refs everybody is suspicious of to the important games please.

Garnett is so damn effective when he is going AT the basket rather than fading away from it. Problem is that most possessions you wouldn't know it.

Pierce just slicing up the Laker's D (prob. could have been a few more calls on those drives too).

I love how careful Tony Allen was coming down after that dunk. Heh.

I'd actually like to see the Celtics put Scalabrine in, if only for one possession just as a motivational factor.

Lakers are collapsing again

15-0 run by the Celtics.

The Lakers refusal to play any kind of defense will be their up doing. My roommate just made mention the fact that Bynum is not their someone who I had totally forgot about. Boy oh boy did they miss him this series.

What the hell is with Gasol? He didn't even look like he was trying to catch that pass.

Also, I think Paul Pierce just might steal Finals MVP from Ray Allen.

Gasol sucks.

Kobe needs to be more aggressive and enforce his will on the game. All of this team leader motivator crap needs to stop.