thing is simply that his passing technique is awful.
He´s basically a 6´10 Aaaron Brooks and i often emphasized what a terrible passer that guy is.

That´s sth you have to work on over the summer. Get some pylons, get a trainer and work those angles. Recognition comes with time and better shooters present better angles, but you have got to be able to play all those passes.
As for Ibaka : I find his game to be more impressive than his numbers even, those are just icing on the cake considering his lack of past experience.

@ MrBug708 : You think ? Kobe has taken a step back this year, terrible shot selection the last 1 1/2 months or so, very little trust in his teammates.
There´s only 1 ball to go arround for Kobe, 3 potent big men and of course Artest.
Guess Kobe will adjust when coming back, at east that´s what common sense tells me.


- Raptors are 18-6 in their last 24 games, pretty impressive.

- Steph Curry with 36/10/13, that´s pretty sick even against the Clippers. Warriors had 4 guys play 45+ minutes :eek:

Although they still don't have a perimeter defender, Reggie Evans came back for an interior presence last night. First game of the season and the Raps fans went nuts for him. In 5 minutes he had 2 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist, and drew a charge.

Their offense can hang with a lot of other teams, but their defense is piss poor. If they can somehow add a good perimeter defender, I'd say they maybe could shock someone in the East, but realistically this is the best they can be as they are right now. Fifth in the East and just outside the top four big guns. I can't see them beating the Celts, Cavs, Hawks, or Magic.

I wasn't talking about chemistry on the floor really but the overall team attitude/chemistry. That might be code for Durant's happiness, though. Green, Durant and Westbrook are very tight off the court, by all accounts, and I think it would cause a problem in that regard to bench Green for an upgrade.

Personally, I think Green does a lot of things well. He has an outside shot, though inconsistent, and he's one of the higher effort guys on the court, not a bad defender at all but just one that gets overpowered by some of the bigger guys he has to face. At the same time, though, his athleticism against those bigger guys is at times an advantage for OKC.

All of that said, if I felt comfortable with it not impacting Durant's willingness to stay when that time comes, I'd absolutely be for bringing in someone like a Bosh.

Was it really a charge or did Reggie pull the flop a roo? Reggie played in Denver for a couple of years. Loved the guys hustle. You just cannot play him too much. In 15 minutes a night, he's great. 20+ and it gets scary. 30+ and he'll be abused. But one thing you'll always be able to count on him for is 1 good flop a night. I think my favorite Reggie moment was when one of the small PG's was cutting sideways on him and clipped his hip. Reggie flew into the standard, the refs called a charge and the PG was so stunned/surprised/pissed off that all he could do was fume.

Those were the days.

I agree with you whomario. I guess it all depends on what kind of a player he wants to be. If he wants to be Dirk, he's in good shape the way he is right now if he just stops turning the ball over. (dirk is not a good passer at all) If he wants to be an all around player, he needs to get the passing fixed.

Him being on the Olympic roster will not hurt in any of this stuff.

haha I'll have to look out for those. This was a full-on charge just outside of that interior circle.

Curry has been very good and getting better, and what he accomplished last night is certainly mostly his talent.

That said, the Clippers didn't even show up for this game, not in one way whatsoever. Pretty damn pathetic. So for all his amazing game, take Curry's stats with a slight grain of salt.

The way the Clippers are playing now, there's no such thing as "even against the Clippers".

Magic are on the second night of a b2b, but they just shelled the Bulls last night. 41-17 first quarter. Nobody played more than 28 minutes. Looking forward to both games tonight.

Look for the Jazz to fall off the table after the break. Lots of road games (and they are not a good road team) and a fall off to the norm. Ak's good, but he isn't shooting 65% for the year. (like he has from January 1 to now. Their interior D is bad. They've played lights out defense during January/February with on the ball pressure.

That's nice when you play 13 out of 19 games at home. 11 of their next 15 are on the road. If they sustain their play good for them. . . but I don't see it happening.

first off : To be fair to Durant : There haven´t been a whole lot of 6´9/6´10 perimeter players before that created things from the perimeter and were asked to score the ball like mad.
Maybe that can´t be done ? If he reverses his A/TO ratio to 4/3 instead of 3/4 that might be enough with the right pieces next to him. I don´t think a 6´9/6´10 perimeter guy will ever by a great facilitator while still looking to score a ton, just tough to do in terms of coordination and with the high dribble/slowish passing motion.

actually Dirk is a very good passer IMO. Doesn´t create a ton of angles because at the end of the day he´s a one-dribble-scorer facing the basket, but his passing ability/technique is pretty good.
Also has trouble getting the ball off against physichal double teams as he´s got a weak base on the floor (in contrast to other big guys. Great balance moving, weak balance standing still.) combined with a high dribble, but in terms of technique he´s right there with nearly everybody that´s 6´10+.

I´m not saying you don´t, but that is sth a lot of people don´t recognize when judging passing ability. You can´t so much work on your natural (athletic) ability of creating better angles (speed/quickness in one dimension, long arms/heigh in the other)
Steve Nash f.e. has average height/arm length and speed/quickness and has less angles available by nature than a ton of other PGs, but he can use every pass in the book with either hand and keep his dribble alive until he finds a seam.

A guy like Tony Parker on the other hand creates a ton of angles due to his amazing quickness, but isn´t half the passer Nash is. Same goes for guys like Brooks, Ellis or even guys like Wade and Baron Davis.
Wade gets propably 50% of his assists by simply drawing 3 people and doing an easy kick out. If he gets played 1:1 and forced to pass with a guy guarding the passing angles (which Thabo Sefolosha or Battier excel in or guys like Bowen did) or has to set up the offense in the halfcourt he becomes pedestrian as a passer.

Damn, i think i may have taken a kinda confusing detour here, sorry about that :D

What i meant : If Durant had Nowitzki´s passing ability with the space and angles he creates due to his athleticism and long arms and height, he´d be in pretty good shape :)

whomario,

Believe me, it's not just looking at assists. A lot of guys have tons of assists just because they dominate the ball. Wade is a great example of that. Arenas, Marbury, AI are others.

There are also plenty of good passers who don't rack up high assist totals for various reasons. Any SF who isn't a point forward is going to have trouble racking up assists. Look at Paul Pierce for an example. Before Rondo and when Rondo was young, Paul ran the point forward role a lot He averaged in the high 4's in assists. When Rondo took over the PG role, Paul's assists dropped. Now he's at 3.3. Melo deals with the same thing. He has CB running the point. He's not going to create himself a lot.


Durant has more bad passes than Dirk this year, but a better passer rating. (59 bad passes to Dirk's 34) Durant as 2.4 assists per bad pass. Dirk is at 3.4.

Essentially, I look at it this way: When Dirk gets the ball, he's shooting it a high percentage of the time. Your goal is to keep the ball away from him. He isn't creating shots for others. When he gets the ball, he's frightening. He doesn't turn it over a lot and gets quality shots off. But he isn't creating for others. If that's what Durant wants to be, he's close to there. But I think he has the talent and the desire to be a 28-8-4 type of player. And to do that, he's going to have to get better, no doubt.

He needs to get better regardless, but the amount of improvement really depends on what OKC will want him to be.

Oh, one more thing: the Dallas defense is in serious, serious disarray right now. They are horrible. 8 straight games of opponents over 49% from the floor. They really need to figure out what is going on there or they will be headed for a 5-8 seed in the west.

stats, pats , meh ... ;) Dirk does have bad passes because the oposition baits him and because he´s passing out of the stand-still instead of on the move and not with his back to the basket in the low post (and thus isn´t facing the defensive rotation at the top, 3/4 of the rotations happen behind him). But if a guy like Durant had his passing, he´d be in good shape.
For himself Nowitzki is just effective enough as a passer to not be double teamed every position, but that isn´t because he´s a bad passer but because the way he plays doesn´t allow for good passing angles.

But now we are splitting hairs, i´ll admit :)

What´s nice is seeing how few of those types you mentioned are relevant. I was looking for a good counter-example for Nash looking at the assist leaders and it´s a pleasant thing to see how few of those ball-dominating little guards there´s left and how good the quality of PGs has gotten in that regard.



definitely. If i´m Carlisle i´ll start Beaubois and play him 20-25 minutes, move Kidd over to offguard and drop Barea from the rotation. I also would try to package Barea and Howard for a solid defensive minded 2/3 that can shoot from the outside and a backup center. Yeah, i know those are hard to come by ...

Right now they have to play Terry at offguard to have any sort of shooting ability and the guy gets abused, especially in combination with Barea. You can´t have both those guys playing big minutes in combination with Kidd and his declining speed and expect to amount to anything defensively... Just doesn´t work. Especially not with Dampier seemingly sitting out every other game.

And even if it sounds crazy : They are a much, much better team with Dampier on the floor. Or a much worse with Gooden. Take your pick. Both play roughly the same percentage of the Center minutes and both play basically exclusively at the 5.

The 3 major lineups with Dampier at Center are a +215, the 3 major lineups with Gooden are a -26
Dampier has an average +8.5
Gooden ? -6.1

offense with Dampier 111
offense with Gooden 104.5

defense with Dampier 101
defense with Gooden 109.5

opponents shoot a 6% better efg% with Gooden on the floor oposed to when Dampier plays.

Erick Dampier of the Dallas Mavericks, NBA player stats
Drew Gooden of the Dallas Mavericks, NBA player stats

It´s one of the most blatant fall-offs from starter to backup in the league.

Dampier´s opponents PER is bad (and he gets picked on a lot by Fans when other big men score on him), but the Mavs are a clearly better team with him on the floor.
Not surprising considering none of their PGs can guard anyone.

btw : Steve Nash is pretty hilarious :

Drew Gooden is awesome.

I've always thought they were better off with Dampier out there than on the bench. Size changes shots. it's a basic tenant of basketball. Long, lanky teams are better than skilled, short teams.

Dallas is slow anyway, add in the lack of length at C and there are problems.

That said, the last couple of weeks has to be as bad of defensive basketball as I've seen in awhile. Look at what teams are doing to them:

Bucks - 53.3%, 9 three pointers - 50% on threes
Suns - 54.8%, 9 three pointers - 60% on threes
Blazers - 53.5%, 3 three pointers - 30% on threes
Jazz - 49.4%, 4 three pointers, 28% on threes
Warriors - 49.4%, 6 three pointers, 38%
TWolves - 53%, 12 three pointers, 54.5% on threes
Warriors - 49.4%, 8 three pointers, 40% on threes
Nuggets - 61%, 11 three pointers, 61% on threes

That's about as bad of defense as you'll see a "top tier" team play for that length of time. FWIW, I agree with all of your fixes. I think they are no brainers.

Gooden sucks. Watched him on the Bulls for around a year and the minute they traded him is the minute they started going on a nice run to make the playoffs. The guy just doesn't understand defense and is a black hole offensively.

Not a great night from Carter and Nelson offensively. It was close for 46 minutes even with that being the case at least.

Getting rid of Hughes and Gooden on the same day seriously was one of the happiest sports days of my life

For reference sake

1. Steelers win XL
2. Steelers win other bowl
3. Cavs win lottery to draft LeBron James
4. Steelers draft big Ben
5. Possibly the day Hughes/gooden got traded.

More All Star replacements :

Bryant and Iverson (go, figure ... :) ) out, Kidd and Lee in.

Lebron James is having an amazing season so far, you almost don´t recognize it because you expect it. Since the start of January he´s averaging about 32 points and 9+ assists a night while shooting over 50%.

The Magic´s power forward were pathetic tonight, Vareja/Hickson : 36 points on 17/25 shooting.
Oh wait, that´s right : They don´t even have a true power forward in the rotation... Why´d they sign Bass again ? :confused:

most hilarious nba related thing i´ve seen this week :



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljq59M9xXjA

Gold :)

Unfortunately, I've been saying this since there was a hint he might go into the draft the year before he actually did. Drew Gooden did not improve one iota from the time he stepped on campus at Kansas to when he left. He's an amazing physical specimen and whether it's that he's lazy or doesn't have basketball smarts or what- he didn't get at all better in his time there. When he tried harder, he could get 20 in college based just on talent but he never really improved his game. It really showed next to Nick Collison and Kirk Hinrich who graduated the next year and even some of their freshman and sophomores like Wayne Simien who just kept getting better the longer they stayed.

SI

Done deal.

Washington Wizards:
Josh Howard
Drew Gooden
James Singleton
Quinton Ross

Dallas Mavericks:
Caron Butler
Brendan Haywood
DeShawn Stevenson

RealGM: Basketball Wiretap Archives: Wizards Acquire Josh Howard

The dunk contest just isn't the same without Dwight.

Dwight did manage to set a Guiness World Record for longest basketball shot while sitting down. During warm-ups for the HORSE contest he hit one from 52 feet. Even when he doesn't participate in any of the contests he still steals the show during All-Star Saturday :cool:

Wow did that suck. I'm glad Barkley and Miller poked fun at the crappy dunk contest. Wallace and Brown seemed to not even try.

yea, was a pretty bad show tonite.

that´s a nice one for the Mavs. Now they have 2 legit Cs. Seriously, people will laugh, but that´s 2 absolutely rock solid Cs and one of the better combos in the league. And the Mavs showed they need a Big Guy behind to play defense.
Haywood is a monumental upgrade over Gooden at the C spot.
Butler could be a huge upgrade over Josh Howard who just can´t get going for a while now in between injuries, listlesnes and lack of skills for Carlisle´s offense.

I heard something about an Amar'e/Richardson for Z/wally/hickson.

Dunno if it will happen.

just to emphasize the prior "this is a good deal" post ... whoa... They kept Barea as insurance at the Point and guy who can change the pace. And moved useless Gooden instead and got a starting SG and a starting C back. Yeah, i´d take that as well if i were the Mavs :D
Why did the Wizz do that, just Butlers contract ? Cause Haywood is expiring.

edit : Can´t delete the video from the quote ;)

I request Shakira in that outfit at next year's Super Bowl.

i'll have to keep a eye out for that

Mavs easy winners in that deal, unless Josh Howard suddenly reverts back to his form from a few years ago and Drew Gooden learns to play basketball. As good as the Mavs were to start this season, I never really considered them contenders. I think maybe now they are in the conversation, even if not as the favourites.

Interested to see what happens with the rumoured Amar'e-Cavs trade. I tend to side with Arlie in that I consider Amar'e one of the great "empty numbers" guys in the league - right up there with Chris Bosh - though I think as a support guy to a clear cut #1 player he could be the piece the Cavs need to add to get them to that next level. Though it could also be very interesting to see what Mike Brown thinks of Amar'e's D...

108,713 in attendance for the 2010 NBA All Star Game.

Wow.

if the cavs/suns deal comes off it's just going to lead to me (and a lot more people) in here bitching about how the nba trade system is stupid. especially if/when the suns waive big z and he resigns with the cavs. that'd just be...ridiculous

Getting Haywood is a very nice addition for the Mavs. Im sure the Mavs were more than happy to finally get Josh Howard off their team as well. The Mavs improved their team quite a bit with this trade but they still arent in the "elite" class of the NBA.

I sure hope Howard has a contract that will soon be over or I have no clue what they'd(Wizards) be doing.

Chris Tucker got fat.

WTF Deron.

OT would be cool.

or not. entertaining game though. I enjoyed it :) Lebron for MVP. but it very well could be Wade.

Wade it is ... on another note, I'm not sure if I've ever seen a speech by David Stern that wasn't screwed up one way or another, he sure does suck at public speaking.

McGrady to Knicks?

"The Knicks and Rockets have designed the framework of a deal that would unload New York’s Jared Jeffries(notes), Jordan Hill(notes) and either Al Harrington(notes) or Larry Hughes(notes) for McGrady, Joey Dorsey(notes) and Brian Cook(notes)."

Draft picks will also be exchanged. If it happens the Rockets will get more for McGrady than I expected they would.

I also keep forgetting that the Jazz hold the Knicks 2010 1st rounder. Youch. It's looking to me like it's going to be a pretty deep draft, and the Jazz aren't going to have much trouble replacing Boozer considering there are like 5 or 6 PF/C type guys expected to go in the lottery at this stage. Well done New York!

Nice job on the Hill pick, Donnie.

I'd trade Austin Daye for Hill.

Take that for what it is worth.

So I still see LBJ going to the Knicks. Question is now do they resign D-Lee with this move and still go after another good FA or do they still let him walk?

If the Cavs land Amar'e/Jamison/someone else I'd say the odds of LeBron leaving are far less. I still don't think he will regardless, because the Knicks/Nets whoever are going to be worse than the Cavs anyway. If the Knicks keep Lee, they probably won't get a Wade/Bosh.

RealGM: Basketball Wiretap Archives: Source: Amar'e Does Not Want To Play In Cleveland

Ok, you're a good player would could be traded from a team on the decline to a team with one of the 2 best players in the league, an aging HOF center who still commands attention, and a decent cast around them? Ummm, why wouldn't you want to make that move and have a good shot at a ring?

Well Shaq and Amare was a disaster with the Suns last year, but it's even easier then that: Most NBA players don't give a shit about winning.

Detroit has the same issues as Cleveland outside of hockey. If they don't draft or trade for someone and then give them a ton of cash to stay, they will leave. Likewise, they cannot sign stud FA's without overpaying.

Perception is reality sadly. People think towns like Cleveland and Detroit are not good to live in, their media market isn't that big and it isn't warm.

Even if they had problems, it's for 2 months and a great shot at a ring. Bite the bullet, take Shaq's mess, win a ring and possibly increase your perceived value to the other owners, sign a big contract somewhere else.

If he plays his cards right, he can become a waste of talent next year with a fat contract.

Well he is probably not going to opt out because no one will pay him what he is making next year. So if he doesn't want to be in Cleveland for 2 months he won't want to be there for another year.

It's stupid but it's how it is.

Fixed

SI

That is probably the truth.

The only sport where I truly believe guys care for the most part is the NHL. The pride in getting that Lord Stanley is unparalleled.

Random question here, as I don't really follow the NBA (or this thread) a whole lot, but I'm wondering who you guys think are the top 10 or 12 or 15 players in the NBA right now?

I don't really need them ranked or anything, but I was talking to my dad and trying to kind of figure out which NCAA conference (if any) produces the best NBA talent. Or if there is even any type of consensus on it.

Off the top of my head, I think of:
Kobe, LeBron, and Dwight Howard (high school)
Chris Paul and Duncan (Wake Forest -- ACC)
Durant (Texas -- B12)
Wade (Marquette -- BE, although I think he was in CUSA)
Carmelo ('Cuse -- BE)

Who else?

I have always thought Deron Williams (Big 10) is in the top 12 or so.

at the moment i disagree

Deron is having a tough time getting it going after his injury, but I have full faith that he'll be back in form next season at least. He used to be my #1 PG, but I'd say that's he's dropped a couple of spots now.

I think given his situation of one year left, I'd be doing the same thing. Hopefully ferry was planning on this.

I haven't watched that much basketball this year. Isn't hickson potentially going to be a very good player? Obviously the goal is to win now. And entice Bron to stay.

Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Duncan, Joe Johnson, Danny Granger, Durant, Melo, CP3 & Pau Gasol would probably be my top-10, off the top of my head. I could easily rotate 3 or 4 of those guys with someone else if you asked me again in 10 minutes, and I've probably forgotten someone obvious.

Hickson has all the tools, it's just that if real life was a video game, his offensive and defensive awareness would be quite low. I think he *could* get there, maybe, but I don't think he's as good a prospect as Marreese Speights, who got picked a few spots higher.

I'd throw Nowitzki (Germany), P. Gasol (Spain), Pierce (Big 12), Nash (West Coast Conference), and Roy (Pac 10) in there.

Then there's Granger (whatever conference New Mexico is in), Joe Johnson (SEC), D. Williams (Big 10), Bosh (ACC), Yao (China) if he can make it back, and just going with the rest of the guys who made the All-Star team this year (except for Iverson who I won't count): Billups (Big 12), Lee (SEC), Horford (SEC), Randolph (Big 10), Rondo (SEC), Rose (CUSA), Wallace (SEC), Garnett (high school), Stoudemire (high school), Kidd (Pac 10), and Kaman (MAC). That's quite a bit more than 15 in total but there is no one dominant conference afaict.

Regarding Amar'e: I haven't had a chance to read :07 Seconds or Less, which was an inside look at the Phoenix Suns 2005-2006 season (of note this was the season that Amar'e was injured), but the cliff notes from ESPN's reviewer painted the following picture of Stoudemire.

- overall a nice guy
- "absurdly unworldly"
- his teammates generally felt he was apathetic
- he dogged it in rehab

Stoudemire wasn't exactly pleased with his portrayal in the book.

Again, I haven't read the book and I don't follow the Suns closely. However, those few insights along with how absurdly high he values himself would lead me to doubt he places an incredibly high importance on winning a championship.

This will sound bad and I'll get ripped for it, but if I'm the Cavs, I'd rather have Murphy over Stoudemire. Murphy really creates bad matchups for other teams and can spread the floor a lot more for Lebron. Amare is a great offensive weapon but him and Shaq just don't work well inside. Murphy is also a better rebounder than Amare.

If I'm drafting teams, I take Amare ahead of Murphy. But in this situation, I just think Murphy is a better fit and causes some unique matchup problems while opening the lane for Lebron.

It's not bad at all. The Cavs need a guy who can shoot it from the outside. All Amare does is help clog the lane when he and Shaq are in so then Bron is stuck settling for jump shots.

Murphy is absolutely a better fit for them.

I'd be pretty happy with Murphy, my only complaint with him - of course, also kinda applies to Stoudamire too - and it may not even be fair these days as most of what I know about Murphy is from his Golden State days, is that he used to be a very poor defender. The Pacers don't exactly play D either so I can't say if that is still the case or not.

I kinda feel like this question hasn't been truly relevant since the late 90s really, once there was a shift from most players going to college for 3-4 years to everyone straight out of high school, or now most of the top players being foreign or 1 and done in college.

I would expect the Big East to come out ahead these days for what little can be measured with a combination of sheer volume and the quality of coaches at the top of the league that is hard to match.

Yeah I don't know why you would get ripped for that statement. It's exactly what we were talking about at work today - if you feel like you have to upgrade at PF why not get a guy with a very unique skillset. Cavs become almost impossible to match up with offensively if they get Murphy, and he's a solid rebounder to boot. His defense is very poor but so is Amare's now.

I think he'd be a great get as oppose to Amare who would make them a worse team overall IMO. I can't imagine how bad that pick and roll defense is going to be with Shaq and Amare on the court and any team with a couple of athletic bigs is going to absolutely destroy them. And as everybody has said, he does nothing to open up the lane for Lebron and he's going to take a lot of offensive possessions away from him. Exactly the kind of guy I wouldn't want if I was the Cavs.

1. Lebron James(High School)
2. Kobe Bryant(High School)
3. Chris Paul (Wake Forest, ACC)
4. Dwayne Wade(Marquette, CUSA)
5. Dwight Howard(High School)
6. Kevin Durant(Texas, Big 12)
7. Dirk Nowitski(Germany)
8. Carmelo Anthony(Syracuse, Big East)
9. Pau Gasol(Spain)
10. Tim Duncan(Wake Forest, ACC)
11. Brandon Roy(Washington, Pac-10)
12. Chris Bosh(Georgia Tech, ACC)
13. Steve Nash(Santa Clara, WAC)
14. Deron Williams(Illinois, Big 10)
15. Paul Pierce(Kansas, big 12)

Honorable Mention:Joe Johnson(Arkansas, SEC), Kevin Garnett(High School), Chauncey Billups(Colorado, Big 12), Danny Granger(New Mexico, Mountain West), Amare Stoudamire(High School)

Looks like High School followed by ACC , Big 12.

Looks like too small of a sample size to really make a judgement

SI

Is the 2003 NBA Draft the greatest draft ever? You have Lebron, Anthony, Wade, and Bosh. Probably 4 of the top 7 or 8 guys in the league. Chris Kaman, David West, and Mo Williams who were or are All-Stars. Some good NBA players like Hinrich, Barbosa, Pietrus, Diaw, Collison. And then a ton of bench guys who get good minutes in the NBA like Perkins, Kopono, Walton, Korver, Ford, Ridnour, etc.

Probably the strongest top 6 in the NBA ever with potentially 4 of the top 5 players being Hall of Famers. As well as being a rather deep draft that produced a lot of NBA starters and bench guys.

This might help a bit.

http://rpiratings.com/NBA.html

Cool! Hard for me to believe Pac-10 has the highest percentage of NBA Players. I would have guessed ACC followed by Big East then Pac-10.

PAC-10 has been decimated over the past couple of years by early departures. The current season is the result

Yup, what he said. Consider the rookie-soph game last weekend. Some of the players on that court: Westbrook (UCLA), Love (UCLA), Harden (ASU), Lopez (Stanford), Mayo (USC), Gibson (USC). Jennings never went to Arizona, but he was set to go for a long while before ditching for Europe (so doesn't count, btu one more coulda...).

And that doesn't mention the other guys in the past two drafts who are considered top notch prospects or have played pretty well or were drafted high, but for whatever reason weren't in the rookie-soph game:

Bayless, Budinger, Hill (Arizona); Mbah a Moute, Collison, Holiday (UCLA); Hackett, Derozan (USC); Lopez II (Stanford); Anderson (Cal), Hairston (Oregon), Brockman (UDub). This group--which didn't make it into the rookie-soph game--includes 8 1st rounders.

The Pac 10 has been absolutely torn apart by talent departures. Almost all of these guys were early entries. And I'm going off of the top of my head; I'm probably forgetting some.

Portland apparently is about to get a deal done with the Clippers, sending Blake and Outlaw to LA for Marcus Camby.

Would be a pretty good deal for them. With the backcourt players getting all healthy you don´t really need Blake, especially considering how good Bayless has looked at times.
And Outlaw would play minutes at the 4 mostly when he comes back, at the 3 you have Batum and Webster who are getting the job done and are younger than Outlaw.
Camby at the 5/Howard at the 4 >>>>>>> Howard 5/Outlaw 4

Plus Camby is an expiring, meaning the Blazers give themselves a decent shot at reaching the 2nd round and giving the players, club and fans a good feeling without changing the salary situation.
Although i am not sure if they have any capspace anyway since Roy´s contract extension kicks in next year.

The 2003 draft, along with the 1996 and 1984 drafts, were arguably the top 3 drafts in NBA history.

Budinger: 44th pick
Mbah A Moute 37th pick
Hairston 48th pick
Brockman 38th pick

"top notch prospects" - I don't think this means what you think it means.

Good thing they kept Dunleavy as GM.

Excellent source!

SI

Well, if you look at pure numbers, it's Big East (55), ACC (53), then Pac-10 (50). But then they average it out per team and that's where the Pac-10 takes over.

SI

This makes me laugh as its not only predictable but preposterous. What exactly are you basing this opinion on.

I think Chief meant top notch prospects in the NBA, now. Not at the time. All players (well, not sure about Hairston), are all going to be good players in the NBA

Yeah, all were drafted in the second round and all save Hairston are strong rotation guys. That's fairly impressive:

Mbah a Moute: 26.8 MPG, 6.4 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 49% shooting
Budinger: 20 MPG, 8.2 PPG, 3.0 RPG, 35% 3
Brockman: 15 MPG, 3 PPG, 4.8 RPG

the fact they don't get paid for the playoffs?

Curious...could you expand on this? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

Without looking at the specifics, my reaction on instinct is "not bad". Outlaw has always been a guy with some potential, last I checked, and he gives the Clips another option at the 3 or even some 4. With Telfair out, Blake gives the Clips a guy who can do the basic backup PG stuff for now. Moving Camby also allows more time for Craig Smith and Jordan to play more in the big man rotation--both have been fairly strong reserves and Jordan needs the time for his development. Plus, it probably opens up more minutes for Thornton at the 4, to show if he's worth an extension. Doesn't much matter since, presumeably, Blake Griffin's going to be the 4 next year.

I don't know if these guys are on expiring or not (I would guess not), so I can't measure that impact. But if they aren't expiring, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Camby wasn't coming back--not because he hasn't grown comfortable with his role or with being in LA or anything, but because he's an older player and he wants to win. So the Clips need to move him now to get anything. If a big time free agent was going to be lured to LA, then Camby's expiring would be important, but let's face it, what superstar is going to sign longterm with the Clippers until they prove they can shake the loser label? I am a Clippers fan, and I wouldn't do it.

If someone tells me Joe Johnson or Dwayne Wade or Chris Bosh is going to walk thru that door, okay, this deal is a mistake. But I'm not buying that.

Dunleavy is an awful coach. But there's a lot of young talent on the team and it's almost all because of him. Hopefully they can get the right coach in there who can establish a tone and work to build chemistry and more work ethic.

This isn't a great move. But I don't see it as a bad one, unless I am missing that these guys are on atrocious long term deals. Like I said, I didn't really research the new players, so I am going off what I can recall off the top of my head.

Yup, Bug and Arles have hit it on the head. As for Hairston, it's potential with him for now. He has always had the athleticism, and he's learning in a great system for players to get accustomed to NBA life, with the Spurs. He would probably be playing more at a forward spot if the Spurs hadn't pulled the Jefferson deal and Blair didn't magically fall to the Spurs in the second round.

And besides, that was a large group of players I mentioned. The fact Samdari could only nitpick at four of them (and, IMO, have an incorrect read on them) says a lot in and of itself.

None of this equates to "top notch prospects"

What was funny to me was that they were top notch prospects that "somehow did not make the rookie/sophomore game". Those rosters are 10 players? Roughly where I would draw the line at top-notch prospects in each class. None of the guys I listed approach the top 10 potential in their class - that's how they managed to avoid being picked for that game.

I agree with Arles that most seem destined to stay strong rotation guys. But, I was just pointing out none of them - at the draft or now - approached the level of top notch prospect.

Semantics.

Whatever, they're NBA level talent, and now they're no longer in the Pac 10, which is suffering. That was the point.

I'll say again, if you're nitpicking four players on a list of what, 12? 13? of "top prospects" that didn't make the game (on top of the several that did), well, really, you're just reaching to try to make a point.

Seems Camby wasn't too happy to receive the news. He was more settled and willing to return to the Clips than I had thought. Definitely a different sorta cat than most (which I knew, but I had aways been under the impression he was biding his time to get back to a championship contender).

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns

FWIW, while I have some sympathy, because I like Marcus and his game, it's clear his teammates like him and I always want to have that rare guy around who wants to be a part of this franchise (for a change), but, basically, screw you to the rest of the players getting upset.

Listen up, kiddies. If you play without heart and chemistry and pull the kinda crap like you did at Golden State last week, well, this is what happens. If you don't want to have close friends traded from your team, here's a hint--sack up and play up to (and beyond) your talent. Listen to your coach, learn and play hard, every damn night. By and large, GMs don't break up winners.

Until that happens, you can all go bleep yourselves until you're traded for guys who do care.

I don't see much in the way of pride in most NBA players, so sue me. Look at the Olympics right now. Guys kill to be represent their nation in hockey, meanwhile in the NBA guys have to be coaxed just to play and if they lose they don't care. It isn't much different in the NBA playoffs. Maybe it is just the old school in me but every NBA playoff game is the same as a regular season game. Guys laughing it up, hugging before and after games with guys they just played against. You just don't see that in the NHL playoffs because there is a singular focus for most players to hoist the Cup.

The tradition is unparalleled.

Hell I'll take it a step further. The Pistons won their 04 title because Kobe and Shaq would rather fight then actually go out and win a title. Stupid shit like that literally cost 13 other guys an NBA title. It's unbelievable.

Seriously? Are the NHL players grittier and more hustlers, while the NBA players are relying on "talent" as well? You may as well go all out with the cliches.

You could say that about NBA players awhile back, not right now. There are an overflowing of superstars who want to play for USA basketball right now. It's the biggest of stars in the game. Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Melo, and others are linings up for the chance to play again. Many USA NBA guys will try out for the team and not make it.

I keep highlighting USA, because the NBA athletes from other countries don't have that problem. Manu, Tony Parker, Gasol, Yao and others have always played on their national teams.

As for the playoffs being like regular season, I just don't know what you are watching. the playoffs in the NBA are vastly different than regular season games. You seem to point out every cliche imaginable to justify why hockey players are different than basketball players, but sadly miss the make on most of them.

FWIW, I love the hockey playoffs. Nothing in sports matches the drama of an OT hockey playoff game. But to say the NBA guys don't want to win? Sorry, that's BS.

I'm sure a hockey team's success has never been undermined by the inability of certain players to mesh due to personality conflicts which in turn adversely affect the team concept. I think this is just a common case of perception over reality. There are selfish jerks in the NBA, there are jerks in the NHL, there are also dedicated team players in both leagues. Seeing as this is real life there are probably players who started off on one side of the spectrum and evolved to the opposite side over the years. Your anecdotal reports of one league being constituted by a greater proportion of one or the other are not swaying.

Yeah, Kevin Garnett didn't really give a shit about winning a title.

The Camby you guys have has to be vastly different than the one the Nuggets had a few years ago. The Camby on the Nuggets was not a respected player. As for the Clippers as a team, I think Camby was gone this year at some point. Kaman is the center. Blake will be the PF. Jordan is a decent project guy. There was no need to keep a 35 year old on the roster. Unless they were gunning for a spot in the conference finals, they needed to ship him out. (and even with a healthy Blake, they would not be contending for that spot yet)

Yup, I agree 100%, although I still don't know much about the Camby in Denver. I know you were not a fan of his. I have seen merit in some of your arguments about Camby's play; that said, I always thought you held him in far lower regard than he actually deserved, even in Denver.

Definitely, this Clips team wasn't contending on that level this year. I think with the right coaching and a healthy Blake and a good team attitude, they would have been a playoff team, but that didn't happen, so they're not. I have some hope that the talent is now here to one day reach that level, but it will still take finding the right coach, right system and right team leaders to make it happen.

As you note, the writing has been on the wall for Camby with the Clips for a while now, really since Griffin was drafted. Not sure why it should catch Camby and the players sideways now. It's a pretty obvious move.

I know, my opinions of Camby and Iverson both have rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. You aren't the only one who thinks I've been to hard on either or both of those players.

All I can tell you is that despite the obvious rebounding/blocked shot statistics, Camby and Iverson both hurt teams BADLY in spots not so obvious on the box score.

Camby cannot play man on man basketball. So if you have a scheme that lets him fly around, he wins the DPOY awards and peole think he's great. Those of us that watched Al Jefferson go 16-18 against him in a game know otherwise. On offense with the Nuggets, instead of getting under the boards and banging on the offensive glass, he was content to sit at the top of the key so he could take ugly ass jumper after ugly ass jumper. (and despite his position on the floor, he routinely wouldn't get back on defense to even slow down a fast break)

He's the most selfish defensive player I have ever seen in NBA basketball. If there is a blocked shot in it for him he's going to go 150%. Trying to get around a screen on a P&R from the top of the key? Not so much. Rotating on a guy to challenge a 15 foot jumper? Screw that, I'll sit under the basket and hope I can pad my rebounding total.

After the first round beatdown a couple of years ago, I wished for two things. Camby to be gone (and I said at the time that I didn't care if we got anything back for him or not) and Iverson to be gone. (for a true PG)

I feel like I'm in a Windows 7 commercial. Because the Nuggets did both of those things and went to the conference finals. People tried to attribute their success to a ton of factors. To me it was really simple, addition by substraction. The two selfish jack asses are gone and now they play like a team. (although they can still be wildly inconsistent at times, nowhere near the way they were with Camby walking the halls)

Sarcasm, yes. I just think that in a league where an expiring contract has value regardless of whether or not he could walk...to get what the Clips got back for an expiring contract who actually can play and help a playoff contender is pretty weak.

But I'm not a big NBA guy, so I could be way off.

If you disliked Iverson and Camby for being selfish you must feel some of the same feelings for Anthony?

A lot of times when the Nuggets do struggle it is because the black hole wont pass the ball.

I think the Clips probably could have got a little more for Camby. But of course it's Sterling and he gets cash instead of a pick or a young guy who they can develop. No big surprise there.

I know that's the myth that a lot of people want to believe, but it just isn't true. Melo's actually had a better passer rating than Iverson for three straight seasons.

Melo has a passer rating of 7.1 (down from 7.7 last year) Here are some comparables

First we'll go with other SF:

Durant (2.9)
Pierce (4.1)
G. Wallace (2.1)
Lebron (13.4)

Now for some other players:

Kobe (8.0)
Wade (9.8)
Joe Johnson (7.0)
Dirk (2.8)
Roy (7.3)


OK, when we get past the fact that Lebron is on another planet, Melo stacks up pretty well with the other guys. His passing is actually an underrated component of his game. One of Denver's few problems on offense is when Melo has the ball and nobody cuts down the lane. When they get tired they stand around the three point line and that absolutely kills them. If Melo has the ball, you cut and you are anything close to open, you will get the ball.

Melo's selfishness still comes on the defensive end more than the offensive end. He's one of the worst help defenders I've ever seen. (man to man, he's pretty good surprisingly)