I have to say the aliens had this won, but swaggs changed the whole deal. Just amazing, and something I never saw coming.

Vote Jeeber

The man has been quiet. I think this is the guy who gets converted and lays low. I figure Neon will doomed, and I wish I had made the right decision between CW and Neon. But CW's conflicting profile from my own, really, really made me question him. But if Neon /is/ gone, I want to start looking at who else is part of this. I'll have an interesting profile to read tomorrow, if I live.

Last I remember, he had a newborn, but that has to have been close to a year ago. Maybe he got too busy.

This is part of the reason why we need a new FOF. It will bring the old faces back.

i'm here.. tabulating votes.

:) You ready to be suprised, boys?

Gratz on post #3,500, BTW

Oh boy...starts to make me wonder whose side you're on now.

I'm on the side of good. Really, it's brilliant...if you are an alien you've voted with us. Granted I've been in mistaken judgement, but I'm focused on rooting out all the hostiles now. Reading the profile tomorrow of whoever should lend a glint into who the baddies really are.

Neon_Chaos: Fouts
Vince: Neon_chaos
Swaggs: Neon_Chaos
Fouts: Neon_Chaos
Raiders_Army: Neon_Chaos
digamma: Neon_Chaos
Qwikshot: JeeberD

(I see three no votes, and scanned it twice, trying to make sure.. but I don't think it made a difference.)

The Sonic Cannon turns to Neon_Chaos.. who grins philosophically. "Couldn't avoid it forever.."

On the last vote, his skin peels apart like a ripe banana, and a fully formed Chryssalid emerges. You all instinctively back away, but he's not concerned. He sprints, avoiding the first shot, and LEAPS, catching an air grille about ten feet up and puilling it out. He's halfway through the air grille and into the ducts when it fires again, and like a cork in a bottle, Neon_Chaos squirts through, but there's no way anyone could survive that.. could it?

"Unable to confirm subject termination due to lack adequate sensors in the air duct system. Correlating weapon hit with alien sub-type, probability of successful termination of alien target: 95%"

Oh Sh*t!

and 2,700 to you! :)

It's been fun boys. Let the real games begin. ;)

Weak.

You need to scan harder... ;)

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/foru...&postcount=821

Great job in finally (hopefully) getting the bastard. We're getting close to ending this thing, guys...

Is it still alive?

Just what I need to be wandering the halls like Dallas wandering the tunnels in Alien and have Neon pop out...

Going for 3230 right here...

Can't wait to check out Neon's room. Might need some assistance tonight.

We are in Night 5.

Oh.. BTW.. if anyone wants to send a search party in after Neon, they're more then welcome to go :D

I'm on it. Consider that my night action.

I'll report back in the morning.

Working on the night moves...

I'm starting to think the moderator is evil, too.

Ok guys, we're down to RA, then the last converted. I'm guessing that person is Qwik, he is the most suspicious.

When did you figure THAT out? :D

Guys, if someone claiming to be Neon Chaos knocks on the door tonight--do not answer it!

Fuck you!



















































































*out of game* You know I'm just kidding with the FU, right?*

"Candygram..."

"I'm not fooled, you're the Chrysallid"

"Uh, Publisher's Clearinghouse?"

"Well okay then..." (opens door)

OOC: LOL, sorry RA, nobody likes being a target, but what can you do? Gotta play the hand you're dealt.

I'm doubtful that I survive the night. But, we've made progress.

Of the 8 remaining (assuming Neon is dead), Qwikshot voted for JeeberD and Mr. Wednesday did not vote.

Just something to think about.

Hopefully I survive the night and we can continue the fight tomorrow.

Just to clear things up...

Foz posted this as the vote:
Neon_Chaos: Fouts
Vince: Neon_chaos
Swaggs: Neon_Chaos
Fouts: Neon_Chaos
Raiders_Army: Neon_Chaos
digamma: Neon_Chaos
Qwikshot: JeeberD

but JeeberD and Mr Wednesday both voted for Neon Chaos as well.

At the risk of totally throwing ourselves off track, something that worries me a little is the possibility that one of the aliens might have PSI powers and could be deciding what Qwikshot does.

I see no good reason for him to have voted for JeeberD tonight, as it just makes him stick out like sore thumb.

It seems quiet tonight. Almost... too quiet...

Pretty quiet day today considering yesterday's craziness. Foz, you are an evil, evil man. :

That's only your opinion.

(ok, probably shared by everyone else in the group :D)

Since I won't be up for the 8 AM official end of the Night session, and everyone sent me their night actions..

The night passes by, with one horrendous sound coming from the air ducts in the middle of the night.. you all rush out... Vince is obviously shaken by something, but manages to shake it off after a couple seconds. He swallows nervously, grabbing a flashlight, and gets a boost from Swaggs to check the airducting. After sweeping the flashlight back and forth.. he nods.

"Looks like they got it last night, but you're not gonna like it. Apparently the acid remains did a # on the air duct system.. things are going to get a mite bit stuffy in here for a while."

The computer does say there's enough fresh air to last for three weeks, but there's a reason, post Cydonia, that companies don't make "Dead Chryssalid" brand Air Freshener. In other words.. YUCK!

As he relays this.. you realize that there's one of you missing.

Quick as can be, you all head back to digamma's room, and open the door.. Digamma apparently was surprised while he was doing a psi-scan.. his hands were on the Psi-Amp, attempting to remove it, when two plasma bolts ruined the Psi-Amp, and then digamma. Numbers are starting to drop now.. Who will be next to go?

Day 6 has dawned.

Schmidty (Day 1: Group)
Blade6119 (Day 2: Group)
Peregrine (Night 2: Alien Front)
Coffee Warlord (Day 3: Group)
hoopsguy (Day 4: Blasted by Computer Override (Swaggs)
KingFC22 (Night 4: Alien Front)
Neon_Chaos (Day 5: Group)
digamma (Day 5: Alien Front)

EctoPlasmic count: TWO

Jesus -- I apologize in advance for the novel.

Gone, but not forgotten:
Schmidty (Grunt) -- Killed by Group
Blade6119 (Alien of some sort) -- Killed by Group
Peregrine (Grunt? Human, at least) -- Killed by Alien Front
Coffee Warlord (Bodyguard-ish role) -- Killed by Group
hoopsguy (converted Alien) -- Killed by Swaggs' computer override
KingFC22 (unknown human role -- reading through the thread, I think he was the medic/doctor type) -- Killed by Alien Front
Neon_Chaos (Chryssalid) -- Killed by Group
digamma ("Seer" Psi-Amp Soldier) -- Killed by Alien Front

Alive and Kicking:
Vince
Mr. Wednesday
Fouts
Qwikshot
Raiders Army
JeeberD
Swaggs

There are 7 of us left, and two ectoplasmics. We have confirmed that on night 1, hoopsguy was converted. On night 3, another player was converted -- with only two ectoplasmics left, we seem to have one alien left, and one converted person left.

Swaggs is a proven good guy -- his computer tech skills have been used AFTER the last conversion, and they helped us can an alien. Verdict: Human through and through.

Qwikshot was the Jack-of-All-Trades -- a quite powerful human role. He was a guaranteed good guy as of day two...but then on Night 3 the aliens converted someone, and he is a very likely candidate based upon his powerful role that everyone became aware of on day two. Verdict: Possible Convert...definitely not an original alien.

Fouts claims to have been a slave/spy. He had intimate knowledge of the aliens and their plans, and claimed that Neon, Raiders and Hoops were the ectoplasmics, and that hoops had been a convert. So far, we know the exact verdict on two of the three, and Fouts was dead-on correct. The only problem with Fouts? His reveal came before the Night 3 Conversion. Verdict: Possible Night 3 convert.

I know next to nothing about JeeberD, and that frightens me. However, we know quite a bit about everyone else, so I think that today is not the day to worry about what we know and do not know about Jeebs. Verdict: Possible Night 3 convert.

Raiders Army is Johnny-on-the-Spot today. Seems that all fingers have been pointing at him, and...well, for the most part they have. The first shot fired was Fouts (I think), naming RA as one of the ectoplasmics on Day Three during the Neon vs. Coffee Warlord battle royale. Highlights of said battle:


Later in the day, Raiders Army came out with this gem:

There are two problems I see with this scenario...first, Coffee was a good guy, and he obviously didn't kill Peregrine. Second...why would it ever be prudent to withold this information? It was apparently a one-use scanner, thereby making his threat to the aliens non-existant after the one time, and on top of that his "information" pointed out a "confirmed alien" -- and yet he was going to hide this information? Because it would have been useful later? Remember that up until this post, Neon_Chaos was leading the voting significantly (though Qwik's vote did shake up the Neon bandwagon), and it was this message that changed it all. JeeberD and Swaggs switched from Neon_Chaos to Coffee Warlord at this point, and it was (conveniently) at this point that hoopsguy (at this point a converted alien) cast his condemning vote for Coffee Warlord.

This is when it starts to get interesting.

Digamma, as I noted above, was a seer-type. A soldier with a Psi-Amp who could view people at night. After Night 3 (when they converted someone), digamma came out gunning for hoopsguy, who did indeed turn out to be an alien convert. He also came out with this morsel in a reply to Raiders Army:

The crucial point of the whole scenario, in my mind, is Raiders Army's response:
With digamma not yet proven to be a good guy, RA was able to deny his story completely -- saying he was a good guy through and through -- presumably in the hope that digamma could be discredited or killed before he was proven as trustworthy. We all know now that digamma was a good guy, and telling the complete and utter truth (the rare case of Digamma being the one who was turned on night 3 and feeding us false information, only to be killed shortly therafter, is ruined by the fact that even though Digamma died, the ectoplasmic count didn't change). In Raiders Army's response, he could have run with it -- jumping on the backdoor that digamma left him "that gives me hope that you might be a good guy, trapped with alien blood." Why he didn't, I don't know...

Just to keep piling on RA...


Interestingly enough, RA (who is still lumping himself in with people who are suspicious...openly calling attention to himself...I still don't get that part of it) identifies two people. He says that he thinks that at least one of them is an alien. They are both voting for Fouts...and he casts a vote for Fouts himself! Not only A vote...but the vote that makes it a tie. So not only is he willingly casting a vote with someone he thinks is an alien, but he's casting a hugely significant vote. He also notes that I am now a suspect, even though he's brought my name and suspicion up in the same sentence at least three different times before this.

The interesting corollary to this story is that Qwik cast the deciding vote on Fouts -- who I'm fairly certain isn't an alien. This could be evidence that Qwik was indeed the converted X-Com agent.

The final bit of information I have tends to muddy the waters a little bit...This corroborates digamma's scan, but has enough 'sob story' element to make you think he might not be the guy.

Remember, however...we have only 2 ectoplasmics left. 1 was converted on Night 3. If RA has tainted blood, then it's only him and the converted person who are showing up.

I'm going to stop for now, because that's insanely long already. Be right back with my follow-up...

I have two paranoia driven scenarios to point out...

1) Fouts has correctly pointed us to two consecutive alien kills. He laid a blue-print that included a third and final alien...Raiders Army. Though it would be tantamount to suicide to sacrifice 2 to save one...Fouts is the perfect guy to pull off such a bold move.

Why this isn't the case:
--Fouts told us to kill Neon, then Raiders, then Hoopsguy. At this point in the game, there were only 4 ectoplasmics to worry about, and Coffee Warlord was one. Therefore if this was a ploy, one of the three he named were innocent. He can't have known we would kill them in this particular order, and as soon as we kill one innocent off his list, he's way up there on the suspect list. No way would someone willingly give up 66% of their team, and then leave their own hide up for grabs like that.

2) Raiders Army "Hates his own skin" -- what if he is not showing up on the ectoplasmic reading scan at all? What if what the doctor did to him didn't affect his blood, but his mind...and he hates his SKIN, which is human? RA could be a bad guy, but on "our team" so to speak. I definitely wouldn't put this past our evil moderator :) If this is the case, we have 3 enemies to worry about -- RA, an original alien (if this scenario is true, I am 99.9999% certain that JeeberD is the alien) AND a converted alien.

Why this isn't the case:
--I have no idea :(

I'm fairly certain that I'm going to be voting for Raiders Army today, but not 100% sure yet. I just want to 'think out loud,' so to speak -- right now the best we can do is get all kinds of information out there so we can make the most educated guess possible.

And for the quad-dola -- I had a harrowing night. I'd rather not talk about it, but suffice it to say I have a better idea of what is going on after last night...and I'm not sure that I'm happy I know.

Vince's post gives more than enough evidence that damns RA.

Vote Raiders Army

I'm not damned.

Gotta go to a meeting, I'll be back later to let you know what I think.

Aaaahhh, so I figured. Come on, good guys. Finish them off!

You've got to know when to hold em...know when to fold em...know when to walk away...know when to run

Alrighty, I'm a goner any way you look at it. Obviously Vince makes some convincing arguments. Obviously, my actions haven't exactly exonerated me. Obviously, I was given wrong information concerning Coffee and digamma...or at least misleading information. The only thing I can do is take out one of you bastards when I die. At this point, I don't care if it's an alien or a human I take out since you all seemed to turn on me. Bring it on.

Swaggs says kingfc22 died trying to defend someone, presumably either Qwikshot or Digamma. Someone (and I hope it was Swaggs, and not Digamma) indicated that they knew what kingfc22's role was. So I'd like to see Qwikshot's assessment of his room, post-kill.

Not true.


He was killed in his bed. Unless he was protecting one of them in his bed...

...suffice it to say, I wouldn't want kingfc22's protection if it meant I had to sleep with him. :)

This is what I am waiting for as well.

If Qwikshot cannot name kingfc22's role or claims that he looked at someone else last night, he is almost certainly the converted. If that is the case, he easily moves ahead of Raiders Army on the suspect list.

Raiders Army, even if you do not know it yet, I believe there is another role, still living, out there that can save you.

Ok -- I need to leave, and I'm probably going to be gone all day. Also, the more I think about it, as tough as last night was to witness, it doesn't help ANYONE for me to keep it quiet. We can't afford to screw up at all now, so here goes.

Last night, Digamma was able to get a Psi-Amp view in befoere hie was killed. He viewed Mr. Wednesday, who is a human. He chose to send this view to me. The roughest part of the whole thing was that he wasn't able to cut the link before he was shot *shivers* -- thanks for the faith Digamma, and godspeed.

It sounds to me like Swaggs already knows what kingfc22's role was, and is waiting for Qwikshot to confirm it -- if he can't or won't, Qwik definitely becomes a prime target. The only problem I see with voting for him is the patter than has developed.

Night 1 -- Converted hoopsguy
Night 2 -- Killed Peregrine
Night 3 -- Converted (JeeberD, Qwikshot, Fouts)
Night 4 -- Killed kingfc22
Night 5 -- Converted ???

With Neon_Chaos dead, we can hope they won't be able to convert anyone...but can we be sure?

If we can prove that Qwikshot is a converted alien (his knowledge/lack thereof of King's role would be proof enough for me), I would be willing to take this risk and vote him off today. Swaggs and Digamma have convinced me that RA is worth trying to save, at least. But if nothing else happens, then RA has to be the only target for today, I think.

I'm going to try like hell to get back here, but since I'm not sure if I'll be able to, I vote Raiders Army. Sorry man -- I want to save you, but you're the only target right now.

I hope there will be enough people left near the deadline to swing the vote, if necessary.

Help me Obi Wan, you're my only hope. Even if I'm saved today, and you kill a human or alien tonight, I'm gone tonight or tomorrow.

You're pretty much the only person I know I can trust, Swaggs. If you feel there's a reason to trust RA then you need to let me know what it is...

Don't trust me. You're right though, that you can trust Swaggs. By process of elmination, he's the only one that is trustable. (Is that a word?)

I trust Swaggs. I also trust Vince -- if he were not human, he would have no reason to publicly announce the results of Digamma's scan of me last night (which I never detected).

How do you know Vince is telling the truth?

A fair point -- I don't. Assuming, for the sake of the argument, that Vince is the convertee, what's in it for you and him to announce that I am human, though?

Great analysis Vince. If you are the converted, you have gone a long way to make yourself look innocent. I tend to believe you though. I still think Qwik is the converted, because of his actions and his role pre-conversion.

It is obvious to me that RA was working with Neon, Blade, and Hoops. Whether he was doing so against his will, I don't know. He never indicated that to me. When I came out with my information and was the #1 target for the aliens, he went full force at me. That was his chance to save himself.

For that reason -

I vote Raiders Army

Why would you think we're on the same side? Maybe we are, maybe we aren't. I would think that we're on different sides since his analysis pointed towards me being an alien.

What would be in it for him? Your trust. That goes a long ways in this game.

That's true... especially since there's been some speculation that you can be saved. Digamma believed it, and I'm willing to go along with that and gun for the converted one tonight.

It's weird how much I can make sense when I'm at work. As soon as I get home and get some beers in me, that's when my posts are "out there". ;)

Going back to the Fouts vs. Neon vote... do we have any reason to believe the aliens would have risked sacrificing Neon in order to get a vote in on the side against him? If we suppose that Qwikshot is not the second conversion, then at the point that the vote was tied 5 - 5, the possibility existed that he would cast a deciding for for Neon. Do we take his vote for Fouts as evidence of being converted, or as an honest mistake that turned out to be very fortuitous for the aliens, allowing them to keep one of their bloc hidden on the opposite side of the ledger?

I can see what you are saying, but are you trying to make it a harder choice? I can understand questioning the obvious choice, but I simply don't see any evidence against anyone else but Qwik. Maybe King, but they killed him.

The alien group played a great game on the boards. I just don't understand some of their choices in the night actions. Hoops was a good convert, but killing peregrine and king didn't make sense.

I'd go so far as to say that killing king was a really bad move, because he had two or three different people believing he was converted. Although, digamma probably would have scanned him the night he was killed and found out he was clean -- in that sense, it might make a perverse sort of logic.

I'm not trying to make the decision harder, I'm trying to figure out how much information we can derive from the Fouts vs. Neon vote. The "off Neon" vote yesterday picked up too quickly, but I'll double-check the tally there to see if anything jumps out at me.

If anybody was wondering about Vince, re-read what happened overnight.

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~fof/foru...&postcount=933

Also... I believe Jeeber was the first to vote for Neon_Chaos. Qwikshot voted for Jeeber (strike 2). Everyone else (aside from Neon, obviously) voted for Neon, so there's not much to derive from that.

Digamma did scan kingfc22 the night before he was killed and sent it to me, much in the same way Vince received his scan last night.

The scan of kingfc22 revealed his role, so that Digamma and I both knew what it was.

The fact that Qwikshot has been in this thread and not replied is very telling to me.

That means nothing. While not a probability, it is a possibility that Vince killed digamma and then investigated the smells with Swaggs. Also, there is a possibility that Vince was with Swaggs while the other alien killed digamma.

Yeah, Vince was shaken because he killed Digamma. Not because he was still receiving the psi-amp readout when Digamma was killed. :rolleyes:

I'm pretty settled on this. I'm going to take a shot at going for the last conversion and give Raiders Army a chance to be cured.

Vote Qwikshot

Jeeber and others, I'm pretty much certain of the following:

Humans:
Vince -- described my experiences with Digamma the past two nights.
Mr. Wednesday -- cleared by Vince's view.
JeeberD -- cleared by me.
Swaggs -- surprised to still be alive (don't understand why they didn't kill me and Digamma, rather than kingfc22 and Digamma).

Alien (ecto-reading):
Raiders Army -- has alien blood. Voting record is erratic.

Questionable:
Fouts -- has been helpful and voted well. Seems to have selfish motives.
Qwikshot -- has acted very erratically the last few days. Had a golden chance to clear himself by identifying what he has seen in kingfc22's room, but has passed on it so far today (even though he has visited).

Vince, can you tell me who all got to see the scan?

I'm also curious as to whether or not Mr. Wednesday learned anything knew last night?

I learned absolutely nothing. I can't say that I slept well (and the commotion about first the air ducts, and then Digamma's death did nothing to help that) but uneventfully. I did not detect the scan by Digamma, and was not fortunate enough to gain any other insight.

Ok...sneaking some time in from my uncle's office...


I'm fairly certain that I was the only one. Digamma performed the Psi-Amp scan, and sent the viewing to me. Sadly, even though we were connected at the time of death, there was only the barrell of a plasma rifle that we could see, so no insight as to who did the killing.

Swaggs, you say JeeberD has been cleared by you -- I don't doubt you in the least, but can you say why? Jeebs is one of four people (Qwik, Fouts, RA and Jeebs) that I don't know about, and I know next to NOTHING about him. Also, thus far all the 'scans' of three people that we've seen have to do with checking whether or not someone is a Chryssalid -- are you sure Jeebs is HUMAN, or that he is just not a Chryssalid?

Yep, if you define selfish as wanting to live, then you are right. I don't want to die for the "cause". I am no soldier, I am a research technician who wants to return to his family.

While the aliens may hate me, I did what I had to do to survive. If Neon had died instead of CW, we would have won by now with no further human deaths.

The only thing I know for certain is about Jeebs is that he cast the first vote against Neon yesterday. That's definitely a positive mark in my book.

At this point, it's apparent to me that Digamma was who he had claimed to be, so I believe his statement of what RA is. Since Digamma believed that RA might still be saved, I'm willing to take a chance on leaving him alive while we try to pin down the remaining convert. I'm concerned that it we wait long enough, the convert could turn into a Chryssalid, in which case we'd be back to fighting off additional conversions.

I don't know for certain that anyone is innocent, but was given strong indications that JeeberD is last night.

I think that's a good explanation for the delay between conversions -- each convert takes a full day to turn into a full-fledged Chryssalid. So while hoopsguy was converted by Neon_Chaos, hoopsguy is the one who converted Fouts or Qwikshot. If the pattern holds true, tonight they'll be able to convert another of us. If the alien who is left has conversion powers, it doesn't matter which of the two we get, just that we don't get a human.

Humans --
Vince
Swaggs
Mr. Wednesday
JeeberD (?)

Not Quite Sure --
Fouts
Qwikshot
Raiders Army

Swaggs -- what's your call right now? Qwikshot or Raiders Army? I'm willing to believe Fouts at this point, and I have about five minutes until I'm out for the rest of the day. If you think I should switch my vote from RA to Qwik, now's the chance to tell me.

You know...irrespective of what else has happened, I'm quite sure RA does NOT have the ability to convert people. On top of that, we might be able to save him.

The theory Mr. W thought up about a convert being able to convert more later holds water, so I'm going to switch my vote.

Unvote Raiders Army.
Vote Qwikshot.

I'm also very concerned about another Chryssalid being developed.

Right now, there are 7 of us left.

So, we have a 6-1 lead, or 5-2 (if RA is beyond saving). If RA dies today, he will kill one of us. That, in addition to their anticipated kill tonight will probably leave us with a 3-1 lead tomorrow, with an unknown source of ecto still existing. That would give us one chance to lynch the right person or we all lose.

If we could manage to kill the converted today, we could get the ecto count down to one. One of us will get killed tonight, leaving us 4-1 w/ the chance RA could be saved.

This is a tough one. If anyone has any cards left to play, let's play them.

Ok, I'm out for real now guys. Good luck.

*crosses fingers*

Vote Raiders Army

Like I have a shot at this point...might as well go with the majority.

Wait Vince.

I've been trying to deke Raiders Army, to see if he'd vote against Qwikshot. Fairly obvious he would rather vote for himself than vote against Qwikshot.

deke me? Are you a wing or a grunt? :)

Then fuck it.

Unvote me
Vote Qwikshot

Fuck you guys and your paranoia...I'm just ready to leave the game at this point.

ok, I may be a bit late tonight, but will try to get things up asap.

Let's roll with this. Come on...bring it.

I have to say that I find it hard to believe that Swaggs, Vince, and Fouts aren't PMing each other. They seem very "in tune".

BTW, I'm prepared to die tonight. I'll be in NYC tomorrow for most of the day.

We're not. That would be cheating.

Anybody have anything good left? :)

I still need to figure out who to vote for.

I'd really like to see some kind of comment out of Qwikshot. Supposedly, he was reading the thread at one point, but other than that I haven't seen him and there's been nary a word. I'd hate to mistakenly off him just because he hasn't spoken up to defend himself.

Save me someone!

Well, we're missing a few votes here...

Mr. Wednesday, does your role give you anything that could help us?

I don't have one. I'm just a grunt. The only insight I have is from what has been posted in the thread.

Sorry, I can't change my vote from a known alien to a possible alien.

Here's where we are right now by my count:

Vince -- QS (switched from RA)
Mr. Wednesday -- QS
Fouts -- RA
Qwikshot --
Raiders Army -- QS (switched from RA)
JeeberD -- RA
Swaggs --

The two fears I have are that killing Raiders Army will kill one of us and that Qwikshot will become a Chryssalid and be able to convert one of us tonight.

I have no knowledge of a converted turning into a converter. Far as I know and have read, it isn't possible in this game. Would SirFozzie do that to us?