I agree. I don't think they will drag it out any longer (and I don't think they should). That said, I don't see how anyone could really view this as the NHL dropping the ball.

They dropped the ball because they set a precedent with the McSorely incident and did not follow through. I don't understand why everyone feels I'm such a minority here when ESPN's Terry Frei called for a similar suspension and over 50% of ESPN Sports Nation voters felt that a one year suspension was appropriate

edit- to include links

But, the McSorley suspension being for one year was like an NFL contract - its length was greatly exaggerated. McSorley was never going to play past that season (he was 57 at the time) and everyone knew it. He was, like Bertuzzi, effectively suspended for the rest of the current season.

Just because McSorley was going to retire does not change the fact that he was suspended for a year.

That is a very uninformed view. The people making the decision on the suspension knew he was going to retire. While I don't claim to know they did this, that knowledge allowed them to suspend McSorley longer than they might have had that not been the case. If they had suspended him for the rest of that year, he still would have missed the same number of games, and lost the same amount of money, as a one year suspension, or even a lifetime ban. To suggest that it is impossible that knowledge affected the announced length of that suspension is very naiive.

EDIT: And I do believe that the uncertainty of next season played a part in them leaving it open ended. I think he will miss additional games next season if it goes off on time. If they don't play again until 2005-2006, he will likely be reinstated for the beginning.

It is not naive at all. Your argument is premised upon the NHL "knowing" McSorely was going to retire and therefore punishing him for a longer period of time. If they knew he was going to retire, why would they both to suspend him longer than they had to suspend him? If you are pointing that my statement is flawed, then you must acknowledge that your own is likewise flawed. You admit that you don't know if the NHL intended to suspend McSorley "knowing" he would retire, but you also must admit that neither of us truly know the McSorley incident. My only point is that I believe the league set a precedent with the McSorley incident and did not follow through with this incident. Let's agree to disagree here.

To attempt to send a stronger message than the penalty they actually imposed. By announcing they suspended McSorley for a year while preventing him from playing in, and being paid for, about 20 games, it looks to the press, public and other players like they were coming down harder on him than they actually did. Can you really not see the benefit in that?

Well, apparently the "benefit" of the suspension's appearance did a lot to deter Mr. Bertuzzi.

dola-

Let's just agree to disagree. We are not going to convince each other so there's no point in picking each other apart over the whole thing. We agree that the Bertuzzi incident was terrible for the sport but we don't agree on the punishment. My point in bringing the whole thing up was to defend myself against the perception that I am in the minority when I believe Bertuzzi should have been suspended for a year.

More evidence, FWIW, that you are in the minority. I agree with everyone else who has disagreed with you. :)

Everyone knows the NHL treats its stars different than its thugs. I think this suspension is absolutely catastrophic to both Bertuzzi and the Canucks, far more than anythung McSorley's suspension caused to himself or his teammates.

It could also still last a year, depending on what they do for next season (although I agree with the assertion he probably won't be suspended again just before training camp--the NHL will have enough bad news with the labor dispute just two weeks away).

For that reason (Bertuzzi being a star), this is almost a precedent as well, rather than something along the same lines as McSorley. It shows that anyone--even the stars--are going to get a serious suspension for actions like this. It's easy for players to dismiss McSorley and his incident because he was a known thug and about to retire. Bertuzzi was supposedly protected by the league code ofr conduct about stars. The only league worse about protecting its stars is the NBA.

In that respect, the NHL sent a whole different sort of message, and now everyone knows that even the stars will be dealt with harshly. Forgive me for disagreeing here, but I can't see a way in heck the NHL dropped the ball on this. This is a fair punishment, even if Bertuzzi doesn't get suspended again in September.

Before you leap on your ESPN poll defense again, you might want to consider something. ESPN attracts all sports fans, not just hockey fans. I would argue that the sports fan that doesn't know hockey actually far dwarfs the number that do. They don't watch hockey and probably for related reasons, don't like the violence or fighting that goes on in the sport. That's another issue that has been shown in other threads to be very divisive, even among hockey fans. So you know how it must be with all sports fans.

They all see this incident, with the pool of blood, and don't understand what kind of punishement this is to the team and to Bertuzzi, because they don't know hokcey. They have only bothered to watch one hockey play all year, and it was this one. So it makes sense that poll is extremely skewed to a huge punishemnt. In other words, it's not a scientific poll, or necessarily representative of an objective observer. You might want to try and find a Gallup poll of the general public instead. That would have more evidentiary support than a ESPN poll of all the basketball beenie boppers, drunk NASCAR and NFL fans, and old codger baseball fans that haven't watched any hockey this season. ;)

CR

The suspension length sounds about right to me.The thingi worry about when they do revisit the suspension next season most of the furor will have died down and he may be allowed to return to action too early.He should sit out at least as many games as Mcsorely did(23).

Agreed. I'm not a fan of the "circle the wagons" approach, and I'm not trying to exclude people from the discussion (least of all samifan, who does knows the sport). But I'm getting tired of all the hand-wringing about this hit from people who just have no interest at all in the NHL. They don't watch the sport, they don't know the sport, but there they are talking about what the league should do about "that Brazzuti guy".

I thought David Schonfeild put it pretty well on ESPN.com today.

Well, I certainly don't think you need to defend yourself for being in the minority. I encourage you to continue to have the courage to stick to your own opinion (as misguided as it is whenever it conflicts with mine) rather than change your thinking simply to be part of the majority. I respect you far more for continuing to argue your (clearly indefensible) position than if you capitulated simply because noone agrees with you. (I would much prefer that you changed your opinion being suitably dazzled by the wisdom of my arguments).

A couple of notes on our debate. As for the NHL convincing people that they suspended McSorley for a year, it was woefully ineffective - nobody bought it as a year suspension. Analysts called it a ~20 game suspension from the minute it was announced, and many (including Bill Clement, who was just on Tony K) remember it as such.

And as far as the effectiveness of harsh punishments as deterrents, it is truly impossible to measure. We cannot know how many times players were dissuaded from committing extreme violent acts in the four years since the McSorley incident. This could easily turn into the death penalty thread, but suffice it to say that when people act without any consideration of the consequences, the severity of potential consequences do not matter. I think that was the case here.

Well I have a couple of issues with your statement. First of all, of course the ESPN poll is not a scientific poll, just as those here on FOFC are not scientific polls. However, I feel that the ESPN poll is still an accurate reflection of the views of over 100,000 sports fans, and yes, you are right, who may or may not know or follow hockey as those of us here do. Nonetheless, 100,000 sports fans feel that the a year's suspension was an appropriate penalty, so I feel it remains an accurate study of sports fans in general. I doubt a Gallup poll would exist and I think you know that. As it stands now, it remains the largest poll on the issue I've seen and, I believe, continues to reflect my sentiment that I am not in the minority of sports fans when I say that Bertuzzi deserved a longer penalty. I will admit that the poll is inherently flawed, but what other evidence do I have? As far as I know, the ESPN poll remains the largest poll on the issue. I am clearly in the minority here, but on a larger scale I still believe that due to a lack of contrasting evidence (scientific or otherwise) I remain in the majority of sports fans in general.

edit- I am willing to acknowledge that everyone here disagrees with me, and now Barry Melrose disagrees with me as well, but I still do not believe I am in the minority of sports fans overall.

Maple Leafs-

I admitted that Schonfield's wife's reaction would be the norm several posts ago.

"As I stated previously, this is the kind of thing which makes it on the nightly news, the same news stations which often do not even show highlights from NHL games on a regular basis."

That's the worst part of the whole situation. Bertuzzi's actions give the sport a bad image.

Exactly. And that's a shame, because this isn't really a hockey problem. It's a pro sports problem.

We all thought it was great when Clemens finally had to step into the batter's box against the Mets. What if Estes had him in the temple? We would have all acted horrified, talked about the black eye, how could this happen, etc. But he didn't, so we all think it's a case of standing up for your team, and honoring the code. Great entertainment!

Sometimes things go too far and bad things happen. When they do, there are consequences and so there should be. But the media needs to stop pretending that this could only happen in the NHL.

I think this is just thrown in to placate those wanting a longer sentence. And I'm really glad they did it. It leaves open the option to suspend him longer, but I'm pretty sure they won't. I think that, even if there was no work stoppage at all, by the time next season was getting ready to start, cooler heads would have prevailed and being suspended from the regular season and playoffs will be enough. But right now, emotions are running too high for even the most level headed to judge clearly.

SI

This is how most "debates" on FOFC go with the regular text what people say and the parenthetical text as what they are thinking ;)


I think the problem with this argument is "who gives a flying eff what the average sports fan thinks". Sounds silly in the "why isn't the NHL trying to market itself to every sports fan" sense but, really, a lot of the people posting there are in for their yearly "the NHL sucks" message just like everytime there's an NBA thread here. If the NHL can keep its fans happy and not piss off anyone else too terribly, then they probably did ok. And by "not piss off anyone", I'm referring to that fact that of the 100K who voted, at least two thirds of those had never heard of and in two months won't rememberBertuzzi's name.

And besides, what's wrong with playing devil's advocate. Whether you believe what you are saying or not, it's damn fun and it just might get people thinking about something they hadn't thought about before :)

SI

And now, thanks to your post, I know that I think Schonfeild put it very very well.

cool!

looks like I'm going to see the Hanson Brothers at the game tomorrow night

Wow, Mullet night AND you get to see my boy Mike Cammalleri, what could be better? :D

Michigan fan?

Nope, Mike Cammalleri fan. Gotta root for the little guys. The scary thing is I'm almost as old as he is.

haven't seen much of him so far, even though we go to 10+ games a year, it seems that every time we go, he's either up with the Kings or hurt.
this will probably be just the 2nd time I see him.

So I get a letter today from the Flames wanting me to buy a pair of playoff tickets:

Round 1 & 2: $1,281.02

Round 3: $807.98 (charged upon successful completion of Round 1)

Round 4: $968.00 (charged upon successful completion of Round 2)


I'd really like to know what it costs for MLB or NBA playoff tickets. I'm a die hard Flames fan but this is just way out of my price range at the moment. I've never been to a playoff game but it will still be on TV.

That would be cheap for Leaf tickets.The cost of round 1 and 2 for the Flames is barely enough for round 1 in Toronto.

That's what I figured and the building will be sold out if we make the playoffs but it's still too rich for my blood. I paid less for 7 regular season games than I potentially would just for Round 1 (2? games).

Hopefully ticket prices go down a bit post-CBA...

They're just trying to make up for the last 6 years...next year playoff tickets will be cheaper :)

:p

We're this year's Cinderella team, baby!

(At least I can dream...)

my wife and I got to meet the Hanson Brothers the other night, which was pretty cool. they were really nice.

she and I and our son had dressed up as them 2 Halloweens ago, and we had them sign a picture of that...

What's going on over there in Pittsburgh that, after losing 18 straight, they have points in 8 of their last 10 games?

SI

Did anyone see this strangeness?


Has anything like this happened before?

The team has played hard all season long. During the long losing streak, there were few games that they we blown out. Once they broke the streak, they got some confidence. Plus, they have won some games where their goalie has stolen the game, which never hurts.

Todd

Well, the Pine Tar incident comes to mind. But I've never heard of it happening in hockey.

Does this mean I can still protest the non-call on Gretzky's high stick in 1993? Where do I fill out the paperwork?

No Leafs, you can't. If you did, the hockey would would be subjected to another few years of "No Goal!" calls from Buffalo fans, which would be sad. Very sad. :(

Not sure what you mean. I've been curled up in the fetal position since 1993. Did the NHL even continue after the Gretzky incident?

A Montreal v Toronto final in 93 would have been the cats ass.

Speaking of Buffalo as you guys are..how bout that comeback by the Leafers last night?

Poor, poor, Buffalo.

If I was driving down the street and saw Trevor Kidd waiting at the crosswalk, I would run him over with my car.

But, (to quote an old joke) you would go right between his legs.

Great article about what it's like to be me:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?id=1760855

They interviewed Rick Viave for this article??

Dude is so dumb he does'nt even know how to spell puck.

BTW...Damian Cox is an @ss clown.

Interesting article on Ken Dryden calling for change in hockey:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/column...jim&id=1761772

Most of that article were exerpts from HNIC's the "Satellite Hotstove" from last Saturday's game.

(From the "Don't you have anything better to do?" file...)

Ottawa City Council has passed a bylaw, banning the wearing of Maple Leaf jerseys in the Corel Centre.

Background: Each time the Leafs play in Ottawa, about half the fans are cheering for Toronto, and they're usually much louder. This results in some strange sites -- "Go Leafs Go" chants, Daniel Alfredsson being booed, etc. But the oddest is the way that thousands of fans are wearing their Leaf jerseys.

Anyways, it's a source of great annoyance for Sens fans, and now City Council has done something about. The bylaw is meants to be tongue-in-cheek, but anyone in a Leaf jersey will be asked to make a donation to the Ottawa foodbank.

Reaction up here has ranged from "That's marginally clever, I guess" to "That's just stupid" to "Um, wouldn't it be better to ask everyone to donate instead?"

So do the players have to donate as well?

Shirts vs. skins.

That might be a little hard on Belfour. Kidd should be alright though :D

"Trevor, wouldn't it hurt if the puck hit you?"
"You know, it never came up..."

Looks like the Leafs have made a response.

My favorite part is the last line. As if that one can of pork 'n beans would really help the Toronto food bank anyway. :)

dola

Happy Birthday bbor!

Damn you are old :)

thx Klayman.

1 more year and i will be able to play 35 and over hockey :D

And that's when your true talent starts to show. Nothing like beating a 65 year old defenseman down the wing to make you feel like a hockey god :)

Happy belated birthday bbor!!

So, how old were you when the Leafs last won the Cup?

Remember, at 34,you'd still be a prospect in the Wings' organization.

Happy belated birthday bbor!

Damn, I've seen the Flames win more Stanley Cups than you have the Leafs. :D

HB...I've never seen the Leafs win a cup:(

It could be worse......well...it could only be worse in one situation....and that is if i was a Blackhawks fan...at least we may be close to winning a cup in the next few years.Hawks fans have...uhh..nothing to look forward to.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

SI

Is EHM:FE ever going to come out?

This game has taken a longggg time to get to....uhh....where? DCo we know what stage the gameis in?Are they in Alpha,beta?

Anyone??

anyone??

Beuhler???
Beuhler??

bbor,

Happy belated birthday.

EHM:FE is slated to come out in Q3, i.e. the summer. Last I heard, it's coming along just fine.

CR

Wasn't it supposed to come out in 'winter of 2003-2004'? So like, Q4 or Q1? I've been waiting 2 years for this game, and it doesn't feel any closer now than it did when it was first announced.

Not that I'm complaining, cuz I'm all for it kicking ass when it comes out instead of sucking for 6 months until it is succesfully patched.

It was, but I think the publisher change affected it.

Also, Riz was learning the CM engine for the first time. That just can't be that easy, especially learning it and then adjusting it to hockey, which I would imagine, would take a lot of adjusting.

My best guess is that Riz didn't like how it looked like it was going to end up in Q1, so he pushed it back to the summer.

CR

I can't talk about what stage EHM:FE is nin, but I'll let you guys know as soon as I can. Let's just say it's coming along nicely.

In other news, Teppo Numminen may be done for good.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1764057

Stupid Flames. Never win when I want them to !!!

You just knew something was going to happen with these two teams with what's gone on over the season.

Oliwa is suspended for sure, maybe Regehr for instigating the whole thing and maybe even a suspension for Sutter and/or fine to the organization if the league really wants to crack down on that sort of thing.

Oliwa got 3 games, Sutter got 2 and the Flames got $50,000. Looks like your playoff tickets will rise in price :)

Not wanting to be left out of the recent stupidity, Mark Messier collects a spearing match penalty this afternoon. I haven't seen it, but I read it was pretty harsh. Quite a way to finish your career if he doesn't come back next season.

Back to the eighties!

Anyone catch the Ducks-Wings game Sunday night? We're talking a major throwback here. If the Wings were in throwback unis, it would have looked even more realistic. Ducks couldn't, though--they didn't exist back then.

87 shots on goal. 14 total goals, only one open net. Final, 8-6 Ducks. And no overtime (of course).

Wings had two different three-goal streaks. The Ducks overcame one three-goal deficit by scoring five goals in ten minutes. Four lead changes (tyhat's a lot for a hockey game).

Federov puts in the difference-maker to kibosh his old team. J.S. Giguere allowed six goals--and still came off looking brilliant with 51 saves.

A large contingent of Wings fans booed Federov every time he touched the puck. This was in Anaheim, people. I have been to games where the Wings are in town, and as usual with all popular teams from back east, we were flooded by transplants who couldn't handle the weather back there. Freakin' bastards. I hate transplanted fans in SoCal (sorry, Wings fans :) ).

Fun game to watch, even if the Wings aren't in any danger of losing their position int he playoffs, and the Ducks have no chance at it.

CR

I saw that game, unfortunatly, Gord Miller was doing play by play, if you get TSN, you know what I mean, he's awful, had to hear his voice crack 14 times....lol....great game to watch though...really fun...

Only good to come out of this is that in my crappy ESPN fantasy league (in which I have been in last or second to last place sine October), I decided I could not handle having the lowest PIM total. So I had Oliwa in the lineup. His 34 minutes moved me from last to third from last in one day. Thanks fellas...

Pure insanity.

You'll find Wings fans everywhere. I can't tolerate the booing of Fedorov. In fact, I must say that I dislike the vast majority of Red Wings fans. The bulk are a bunch of Johnny-come-lately's who feel that just because they either grew up in Michigan or cheer for an original six team that they have some superior knowledge of hockey than nearly everyone else. As soon as they open their mouths, however, it becomes apparent just how false this assumption is...

This applies even in the Joe. I have never been more upset watching a game than sitting in Joue Louis and having to hear what the people around me are saying or shouting. SO... VERY... ANGRY... :mad:

Actually, some more good in that Oliwa will forfiet $18,292.68 in salary. If that isn't proof for the owners that today's players are overpaid, I don't know what is. :)

So for those who follow the NHL's disciplinary standards, here's what we now know based on the Belak and Messier rulings:

Accidentally hitting a guy in the head with a stick: eight games
Intentionally hitting a guy in the groin with a stick: two games

Add that to what we learned with Havlat:
Intentionally hitting a guy in the head with a stick: two games

Makes sense to me...

I only saw the Belak hit once, so I apologize profusely in advance if I'm wrong, but my eyes didn't see anything that looked even remotely like "accidentally".

Didn't see the Messier spear, but Havlat definitely deserved more than 2 games.

Well, Belak wasn't facing him and doesn't even look at himthe whole time, so he's got a pretty good sixth sense if it was intentional. Plus he was off-balance. Which isn't uncommon for Belak, come to think of it... he can barely skate.

So I'd describe it as "accidental, but incredibly careless". If the league is going to start to say that the distinction between "incredibly careless" and "intentional" isn't going to matter anymore for stick fouls to the head, I'd actually be all for that.

After years of being completely illogical, you didn't actually think things would start making sense this year did you?

Shane Corson scores a shorty against Calgary when Brett Clarke puts the puck into his own net...from the Dallas zone!


Whaaa, whaaaa, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

I'm shocked that they only gave Messier 2 games.Belaks banishment was about right band his infraction was as bad as Messiers,which leads me to believe it DOES matter who does the crime....Belak a known good...or Messier the captain of all captains.

BTW i totally disagree with Suter getting 2 games for putting Oliwa on the ice.Since when has it become the policy of the NHL to make line changes for NHL teams?

Sach...Are you telling me Corson has'nt taken his net and gone home yet?:)

lol

How did he score on his own net? Was it a delayed PP?

Corson was credited with his second goal of the game after Flames forward Chris Clark accidentally sent the puck into his own empty net after his errant pass missed all his teammates and sailed into the empty net.

Ack! I'm drunk. Just got home from the game, and the beer couldn't ease the pain. Clarky passed it back to the point on the PP when the flames pulled the goalkeeper. Shame, really cause Clark was the only Flame who deserved a goal tonight.

Some random thoughts from the game.

--The Stars dropped into a trap midway through the first. That kinda of shit should be outlawed. Or at least the fans should be named the 1st, 2nd and 3rd stars of the game for having to sit through that crap.

--Someone needs to hand the fire and ice girls a sandwich. They didn't even have to open the Zamboni doors, the girls just slid through the cracks in the glass to get on the ice.

--Fans that get up and leave midway through the 3rd peroid, aren't real fans.

--Turco is a bastard and I hate him. And I'm not even a Flame fan.

1) It should be outlawed, but isn't, so they play that way, boring as it is, and it works (see Stanley Cup win, which was done using the same methods).

2) Fan thing, could not agree more...that's bush.

3) TURCO IS GOD (as thealmighty, I should know).

dola...

...I was watching the game. The look on Flames faces as they SLOWLY skated back after the Clark 'pass' was funny (to a Stars fan), knowing it was headed in and there was nothing they could do about it.

Yea Oilers! Every Canadian team is currently in the playoffs at this moment!

Boo! And I used to like you ;)

LOL @ Corson. He's doing just what needs to be done...knocking the crap out the other team.

DOLA,

Turco is definately NOT god. Until he learns to hug the post on a wraparound, he wil be just another mortal. He gives up some weak goals sometimes.

we'll take him.

signed,
almost every other NHL team.

Bah. Didn't say I would get rid of him; but he's not a god. :)

Turco plays better with a broken foot than healthy:)

klayman, I think bbor said something about your mama in the instant coffee thread. It wasn't cool. Not cool at all...

AHAHAHAHAH

hb...2 minutes for instigating and a game misconduct:D

Bastard deserves it.

Two games? Damn, he should have just speared him in the crotch.

People in Calgary are calling for Turco to be suspended for what he did to Clarke. I didn't see the game so I can't comment.

I'm all for cleaning up the game but Dryden should come off of his high horse and reexamine his own team instead of chastizing the game itself.

Canuck gets in trouble -- Brian Burke goes on TV and tells everyone to back off and leave his guy alone, that he's going to stick by him no matter what

Leaf gets in trouble -- Ken Dryden goes on TV and bleats on and on about how hockey sucks and the NHL should suspend everyone

I don't know about you, but I know who I'd want to play for after this episode.

Turco cross checked him in the face as he slid across the ice. It was totally unnecessary, and I would support a suspension for that. He's lucky Clarke didn't get hurt. I think I know why he did it, but still, the guy was defenseless.

Bastards :)

Yeah, couldn't believe there was no penalty on the Simon hit. I guess it was kinda of behind the play though.

As for Turco, he's a bastard. But I didn't think the cross check was that horrible enough to warrant suspension. Of course, by that time in the game I was already tanked.

so, do we need THREE refs now? :D

I really think it is time for off-ice offials having the power to call a penalty. At least it should be up for discussion. The game is so fast and calls are missed all the time because it simply wasn't seen or was misinterpreted by coming to the action late.

But truth be told, I just wish they would call all the mugging of the puck carrier. In the Flames/Nashville game, Iginla was carrying a guy the entire game. Yes, it was an effective strategy considering interference, hooking, holding was never called. Iginla is mild mannered but his frustration shone through afterwards.

If Gretsky or Orr entered the league today, they wouldn't become the icons they are now.